What's wrong with the Veneration of Saints?

[Jimmy_B]

What’s wrong with the Veneration of Saints?

Veneration of Saints

**Jos 5:14 And he answered: No: but I am prince of the host of the Lord, and now I am come. (5:15) Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, said: What saith my lord to his servant?

Dan 8:17 And he came, and stood near where I stood: and when he was come, I fell on my face, trembling, and he said to me: Understand, O son of man, for in the time of the end the vision shall be fulfilled.

Tob 12:16 And when they had heard these things, they were troubled, and being seized with fear they fell upon the ground on their face.

Mat 18:10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

1Jn 3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also: and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we have been among you for your sakes.
1Th 1:6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 1:7 So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1Th 1:8 For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.

Heb 13:7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, **

Note: Prodigal Son1 did all of the work by posting these verses on the group here at CAF titled- Catholic Verses. Thank you Prodigal Son1.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Is this the sequel to “What’s Wrong with Christmas?”

Jimmy, are you just going to keep churning out threads that start with “What’s wrong with…?” LOL

What’s wrong with indulgences?
What’s wrong with infallibility?
What’s wrong with neo-platonism?

We need a Seinfeld opener, “not that there’s anything wrong with that!”

 

[Jimmy_B]

Is this the sequel to “What’s Wrong with Christmas?”

Jimmy, are you just going to keep churning out threads that start with “What’s wrong with…?” LOL

What’s wrong with indulgences?
What’s wrong with infallibility?
What’s wrong with neo-platonism?

We need a Seinfeld opener, “not that there’s anything wrong with that!”

You crack me up buddy…:extrahappy:
Haven’t you gotten use to me yet and to my style of posting…:hey_bud:

 

[stormy99]

Absolutely nothing at all…St. Catherine of Siena deserves my adoration she is a great Saint.

stormy

 

[Jimmy_B]

Absolutely nothing at all…St. Catherine of Siena deserves my adoration she is a great Saint.

stormy

I’m a fan of St. Catherine of Siena myself… then again I have my favorites and she’s on my short list.

 

[autdrew]

The only thing I see wrong with veneration is the way some people practice it. There are those people who venerate their saints so much that it looks more like "Where’s the Christ?"So its not the doctrine, its people’s application, that can give it a bad name.
Personally, I love the communion of saints because I know we all live on in Heaven.I have learned a great deal from St Faustina about the Divine Mercy & my confirmation St Mary Magdalene, again, on mercy.

 

[Wesley7]

Nothing really as long as it is orthodox and traditional. (within reason)

 

[Jimmy_B]

Here is a list of Catholic Saints

 

[JonNC]

=Jimmy B;7062384]What’s wrong with the Veneration of Saints?

Jimmy,
Could you please describe what exactly veneration includes? the Augsburg Confession says:

Of the Worship of Saints they teach that the memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling, as the Emperor may follow the example of David in making war to drive away the Turk from his country. 2] For both are kings. But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. 3] He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2:1: 4] If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, etc.

Without getting caught up in the use of the word “worship” (let’s say they meant dulia), is invocation of saints necessary in the definition of “veneration”?

Jon

 

[AngloCatholic1]

JonNC:

Invocation of the Saints certainly isn’t “necessary”…but then talking to your fellow parishoners in church (those who are still living) is optional as well!

The Bible is VERY clear that the Saints are alive. Remember what Jesus said to Martha?:

*“Jesus said: I am the resurrection. Anyone who believes in me, even though that person dies, will live, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” *- John 11:25-26

***We also know that NOTHING separates the living Church, the Body of Christ. We are ONE together with God and we will ALWAYS dwell with Christ WHEREVER HE IS:
**
“May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one. **With me in them and you in me, may they be so perfected in unity **that the world will recognise that it was you who sent me and that you have loved them as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, so that they may always see my glory which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” *- John 17:21-24

And we know that God hears all our prayers:

*“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. A large quantity of incense was given to him to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that stood in front of the throne; and so from the angel’s hand the smoke of the incense went up in the presence of God and with it the prayers of the saints.” *- Rev. 8:3-4

And St. Paul tells us that NOTHING can separate us, not even death:

*“For I am certain of this: neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nothing already in existence and nothing still to come, nor any power, nor the heights nor the depths, nor any created thing whatever, will be able to come between us and the love of God, known to us in Christ Jesus our Lord.” *- Romans 8:38-39

**So what lack of faith, brother, is holding you back from prayerful communion with the LIVING body of Christ? **

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy,
Could you please describe what exactly veneration includes? the Augsburg Confession says:

Without getting caught up in the use of the word “worship” (let’s say they meant dulia), is invocation of saints necessary in the definition of “veneration”?

Jon

**Here are two examples of “veneration” in the Catechism, in the context of “respect” or “honor” but not worship. Obviously Catholics do not “worship” the Old Testament or the New Testament. **

Catechism of the Catholic Church
**123 **Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).

**127 **The fourfold Gospel holds a unique place in the Church, as is evident both in the veneration which the liturgy accords it and in the surpassing attraction it has exercised on the saints at all times:
There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid than the text of the Gospel. Behold and retain what our Lord and Master, Christ, has taught by his words and accomplished by his deeds.
But above all it’s the gospels that occupy my mind when I’m at prayer; my poor soul has so many needs, and yet this is the one thing needful. I’m always finding fresh lights there; hidden meanings which had meant nothing to me hitherto.

**Here is an example of “venerate” in the Catechism, in the context of “worship”. Obviously Catholics do “worship” one God and that one God alone. **

Catechism of the Catholic Church
**2112 **The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: “Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.” God, however, is the “living God” who gives life and intervenes in history.

**We all know that in the English language, one word can have multiple meanings and context is everything, if we are to understand the meaning of that word in the context in which it’s used. Context is also important if we are to understand Christ’s teachings, Holy Tradition, Holy Scripture, the Sacraments and so on. That’s why we need the Church, established by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. **

**Catholics worship one God and honor, or respect Saints. Most of the confusion involving Catholic beliefs are caused by those who are not loyal to the Catholic Church and who take our beliefs out of context. Some of the questions here cannot be simply answered or understood with a couple of Bible verses, or a single talking point. **

**The purpose of the Sacraments, sacramental’s, The Lives of the Saints and the many other things “Catholic”, is to lead us to Christ. All things Catholic point toward our Heavenly King. **

**Additionally, Catholics profess the Nicene Creed, which includes our belief in the Communion of Saints , so maybe your answer can be found there, understanding, The Communion of Saints. **

**Jon, I know that most of this isn’t new to you, many of my comments here are meant, generally speaking. **

**I hope this helps. **

 

[swariffin]

What’s wrong with the Veneration of Saints?

Veneration of Saints

**Jos 5:14 And he answered: No: but I am prince of the host of the Lord, and now I am come. (5:15) Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, said: What saith my lord to his servant?

Dan 8:17 And he came, and stood near where I stood: and when he was come, I fell on my face, trembling, and he said to me: Understand, O son of man, for in the time of the end the vision shall be fulfilled.

Tob 12:16 And when they had heard these things, they were troubled, and being seized with fear they fell upon the ground on their face.

Mat 18:10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

1Jn 3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also: and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we have been among you for your sakes.
1Th 1:6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 1:7 So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1Th 1:8 For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.

Heb 13:7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, **

Note: Prodigal Son1 did all of the work by posting these verses on the group here at CAF titled- Catholic Verses. Thank you Prodigal Son1.

Surely, there is nothing wrong with Veneration of Saints. They are like our elder brother who has accomplished the journey to be in heaven, to be united with God. They are part of the “Church”, and since they are already with God, they can pray for us on our behalf. They are united with us during our Mass celebration. God Himself had made it clear to Moses, that those people who live in the way of God will live, although they have died. (See Exodus 3:6).

 

[JonNC]

=AngloCatholic1;7066220]JonNC:

Invocation of the Saints certainly isn’t “necessary”…but then talking to your fellow parishoners in church (those who are still living) is optional as well!

Agreed, though one can be sure that those fellow parishoners can hear you (well, maybe that’s an overstatement ).

The Bible is VERY clear that the Saints are alive. Remember what Jesus said to Martha?:

"Jesus said: I am the resurrection. Anyone who believes in me, even though that person dies, will live, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" - John 11:25-26

***We also know that NOTHING separates the living Church, the Body of Christ. We are ONE together with God and we will ALWAYS dwell with Christ WHEREVER HE IS:

---

“May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one. **With me in them and you in me, may they be so perfected in unity **that the world will recognise that it was you who sent me and that you have loved them as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, so that they may always see my glory which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” - John 17:21-24

And we know that God hears all our prayers:

*“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. A large quantity of incense was given to him to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that stood in front of the throne; and so from the angel’s hand the smoke of the incense went up in the presence of God and with it the prayers of the saints.” *- Rev. 8:3-4

And St. Paul tells us that NOTHING can separate us, not even death:

*“For I am certain of this: neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nothing already in existence and nothing still to come, nor any power, nor the heights nor the depths, nor any created thing whatever, will be able to come between us and the love of God, known to us in Christ Jesus our Lord.” *- Romans 8:38-39

No argument with any of this.

**So what lack of faith, brother, is holding you back from prayerful communion with the LIVING body of Christ? **

Nothing, except there is no command, example, or promise regarding invocation of the saints. That doesn’t mean there is necessarily any harm in it, and I am not condemning it.
In fact, I am aware of the great comfort millions of Christians receive from the practice, and I know God hears these prayers.
I know the saints pray for us, the Church Militant, and my prayer is that He hears their prayers on our behalf. “Lord in heaven, I ask that you hear the prayers of your saints in your Church Triumphant, and apply them to my brothers and sisters of the Church Militant, and all of mankind, according to their needs. Amen”

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Here are two examples of “veneration” in the Catechism, in the context of “respect” or “honor” but not worship. Obviously Catholics do not “worship” the Old Testament or the New Testament.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
**123 **Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).

**127 **The fourfold Gospel holds a unique place in the Church, as is evident both in the veneration which the liturgy accords it and in the surpassing attraction it has exercised on the saints at all times:
There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid than the text of the Gospel. Behold and retain what our Lord and Master, Christ, has taught by his words and accomplished by his deeds.
But above all it’s the gospels that occupy my mind when I’m at prayer; my poor soul has so many needs, and yet this is the one thing needful. I’m always finding fresh lights there; hidden meanings which had meant nothing to me hitherto.

Here is an example of “venerate” in the Catechism, in the context of “worship”. Obviously Catholics do “worship” one God and that one God alone.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
**2112 **The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: “Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.” God, however, is the “living God” who gives life and intervenes in history.

**We all know that in the English language, one word can have multiple meanings and context is everything, if we are to understand the meaning of that word in the context in which it’s used. Context is also important if we are to understand Christ’s teachings, Holy Tradition, Holy Scripture, the Sacraments and so on. That’s why we need the Church, established by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. **

**Catholics worship one God and honor, or respect Saints. Most of the confusion involving Catholic beliefs are caused by those who are not loyal to the Catholic Church and who take our beliefs out of context. Some of the questions here cannot be simply answered or understood with a couple of Bible verses, or a single talking point. **

**The purpose of the Sacraments, sacramental’s, The Lives of the Saints and the many other things “Catholic”, is to lead us to Christ. All things Catholic point toward our Heavenly King. **

**Additionally, Catholics profess the Nicene Creed, which includes our belief in the Communion of Saints , so maybe your answer can be found there, understanding, The Communion of Saints. **

**Jon, I know that most of this isn’t new to you, many of my comments here are meant, generally speaking. **

**I hope this helps. **

Thanks, Jimmy. Would you say that the paragraph that I posted is a worthy example of venerating His saints?

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

Thanks, Jimmy. Would you say that the paragraph that I posted is a worthy example of venerating His saints?

Jon

Hi Jon,
Are referring to this (below) paragraph?

Of the Worship of Saints they teach that the memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling, as the Emperor may follow the example of David in making war to drive away the Turk from his country. 2] For both are kings. But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. 3] He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2:1: 4] If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, etc.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,
Are referring to this (below) paragraph?

Yes. Particularly the first couple of sentences.

EDIT: Oh, I’d appreciate and value your thoughts on my response to AngloCatholic 1’s post.
Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

Yes. Particularly the first couple of sentences.

EDIT: Oh, I’d appreciate and value your thoughts on my response to AngloCatholic 1’s post.
Jon

Hi Jon,

I’m trying to be careful here, so my short answer would be, “Yes, parts of it”… However, my full answer can be found in the official teachings and official doctrine of the Catholic Church, on the Communion of the Saints, intercessory prayer and the veneration of Mary and the Saints. So, in all fairness, even though it may seem like a simple question, the answer, from a Catholic perspective may not be. I hope you understand that. Thank you for your post.

Peace

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

I’m trying to be careful here, so my short answer would be, “Yes, parts of it”… However, my full answer can be found in the official teachings and official doctrine of the Catholic Church, on the Communion of the Saints, intercessory prayer and the veneration of Mary and the Saints. So, in all fairness, even though it may seem like a simple question, the answer, from a Catholic perspective may not be. I hope you understand that. Thank you for your post.

Peace

Thanks for your response, and I do understand. I get the feeling that, in Catholic thought, invocation is completely interwoven in true veneration.

Thanks,
Jon