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yateanieys
Guest
Well-played
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adf417
Guest
Hi yateanieys, its good to know the next time I ask ANY non-Catholic a question on doctrinal beliefs or their interpretation of a certain scripture their answer will reflect yours, right? It will be something I will have to keep in mind. The only question that remains now is will this logic work in reverse for other non-Catholics?
Peace!!!
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yateanieys
Guest
Here’s how:
The United States of America
- Consists of people from all different walks of life marching under the same banner, their faith in both the American Flag and the guarantee of the freedoms of the Constitution.
- The American Flag is what unifies the People as one, not the political affiliation an individual most closely associates with.
- Their differences make them strong, but the American Flag gives them hope during the worst of times and the resolve to overcome their enemies.
- The USA’s direction is determined by the People as well as those in positions of authority.
- Those in positions of authority, like the People they serve, differ by their subjective views and political affiliation (i.e. Democrat, Republican, Independent, etc.), but they are nonetheless servants of the People.
- If it weren’t for the People, The USA would not exist.
- They are all different from each other in their opinions, faiths and methodologies, and though they squabble amongst themselves about fairness or who is right or wrong, they are by no means divided.
“I hold it to be the duty of every public servant, and of every man who in public or private life holds a position of leadership in thought or action, to endeavor honestly and fearlessly to guide his fellow countrymen to right decisions…”
~Theodore Roosevelt [A Charter for Democracy - FEB 21, 1912]
The Church (which includes the Catholic faith)
- Consists of people from all different walks of life marching under the same banner, their faith in both God Almighty and the guarantee of the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
- God Almighty unifies the community as one, not the brand of faith an individual most closely associates with.
- Their differences make them strong, but God Almighty gives them hope during the worst of times and the resolve to overcome their enemies.
- The Church’s direction is determined by the community as well as those in positions of authority.
- Those in positions of authority, like the community they represent, differ by their subjective views and brand of faith (i.e. Protestant, Catholic, Lutheran, etc.), but they are nonetheless servants of the community.
- If it weren’t for the community, the Church would not exist.
- They are all different from each other in their opinions, faiths and methodologies, and though they squabble amongst themselves about fairness or who is right or wrong, they are by no means divided.
“Those who received a ministry of leadership, preaching, and administering the sacraments, are not to be considered owners of special powers—masters—but to serve the community, helping her to walk, with joy, the path of holiness.”
~Pope Francis [00284-01.01, translated from Italian]
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Boats, ships, barques, all these things to stay afloat…
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
Or of thine own were:
Any man’s death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
by John Donne.
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yateanieys
Guest
If you want to retain the hope that their answers will reflect mine, then that’s your prerogative, but you’re liable to be disappointed. I’m not the non-Catholic Pope
I understand and respect your position (even though it reeks of sarcasm), just know that I don’t express my opinions to prove what’s right; I’ve learned the hard way that’s a fool’s errand on this discussion forum. I share my views to provoke thought, promote equal respect, and encourage people to grow in their faith in the Lord.
The more you debate with members of other faiths, the better equipped you’ll be when you go out fishing for people in the name of Jesus!
Remember, these discussion do nothing but make us more adamant about our brand of faith. We aren’t convincing anyone outside our faith to abandon their own faith. We are helping each other grow! I believe that’s why God allowed the Church to branch out. It’s a genius that could only come from the Author of the greatest story ever written!
God bless!
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Randy_Carson
Guest
The Ship and the Rafts
A Catholic Convert Looks Back (transcribed from a talk)
By Steve Ray
Imagine a king who establishes a new country on the other side of the ocean. In order to populate his new land, he chooses the people that he wants to make citizens. Next, he builds a ship and prepares his chosen people for the long journey across the ocean.
The ship he provides is a large, beautiful ocean liner well-equipped with everything needed for the journey: food and water, showers with hot water, navigation charts, a crew and captain, and power to move the ship. The king puts everyone he has chosen aboard this ship and sends them on their way to their new home. Everything needed to reach the new country can be found aboard that ship.
Of course, the founder of this new country is God, the new country is heaven, and you and I are the ones he has chosen to journey there. The ship that He built is the Catholic Church, the captain is the pope, and the crew is the bishops, priests and deacons. The navigation charts are Scripture and Tradition. The showers are the sacraments of baptism and reconciliation, and the food and water for the journey is the Eucharist. The power that moves the ship is the Holy Spirit. Everything we need to reach heaven can be found within the Catholic Church.
The journey goes smoothly until the ship is halfway across the ocean. Then, some of the passengers start to argue and protest. Like the Israelites who grumbled about the manna in the desert, they begin to complain about eating the same food all the time. They ask, “Who is this captain, and why should he be in charge? Who gave these crew members the right to tell us what to do?”
The protesters go down into the bottom of the ship where they find wood and rope, and they build rafts for themselves. They collect food and water, clothing and anything else they can find, and throw themselves and their rafts over the side of the ship. Now, they don’t have to listen to the captain and crew, or eat that same old food or even take those hot showers which made them uncomfortable. They are free!
The scene is amazing. Instead of a single ship sailing for its home port, there are now 33,000 or more small rafts in the water around the ship! (The Oxford University Encyclopedia of Christianity says there are 33,000 Protestant denominations today with more being added to this number each year.) Now this beautiful ship is surrounded by 33,000 rafts bobbing around it—each with its own captain giving conflicting and contradictory orders.
As the ship continues toward heaven, some of the rafts remain close by, but others drift off into the distance, and some are moving in the opposite direction and have lost their way completely. Those rafts that are close to the ship are sheltered from some of the wind and waves; those farther away are tossed about during the storms. The farther away they are, the less chance they have to make it to the other side.
Everything good on board the rafts came from the ship, but now they are cut off from that source. Eventually, the food runs out, and the people begin to eat something other than what the king provided. There are no showers available for the people to get clean again.
When I was a Protestant, I never realized that everything good that I had came from the Catholic Church. For example, the Bible was put together by Catholic bishops and copied and preserved by Catholic monks. Martin Luther even admitted that we wouldn’t have a Bible if it were not for “the papists.” My Protestant fellowship only had two sacraments, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, while the Catholic Church has seven. Those who are still out on the rafts need to be reminded that everything they have, they got from the Mother ship.
One interesting point is that I did not jump off the ship; I was born on a raft. For a long time, I didn’t even know there was ship—it was nowhere in sight! I was born on a Baptist raft, and I could yell over to the Methodist raft, and they could yell over to the Episcopalian raft, and they could yell over to the Anglican raft, and so forth. We called that fellowship.
Then one day, I caught a glimpse of something large on the horizon, and I said, “Hey, what is that?” They answered, “We don’t want to talk about it.” “Why not?” I asked. “Because it’s bad.” “What is it?” “It’s the ship.” Out of ignorance, I accepted the idea that the ship was bad.
One day, however, it dawned on me that that the founder of the country I was trying to reach had created the ship to carry me home safely. “Of course,” I thought. “Why would God create 33,000 rafts competing to ferry His people home?” After reading and researching and praying, I got back on board the ship. I became a Catholic, and I’m amazed at what I have found onboard.
Cradle Catholics may take these things for granted, but we converts are in awe. You have seven sacraments, and they work! You have navigation charts: the Scriptures and the Tradition that helps you make sense of the maps. You have a crew that understands how to read the maps and charts without error, how to prepare the food, the Eucharist, properly, and how to operate the showers so that we can get cleaned up from all the foul-smelling sins we commit. You also have a captain, the Pope, who actually knows where he’s going!
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adf417
Guest
Yes I am sorry for the sarcasm and I apologize. I hate it when I do that, more so than when someone says there is no chaos in Protestantism. Two wrongs do not make it right.If you want to retain the hope that their answers will reflect mine, then that’s your prerogative, but you’re liable to be disappointed. I’m not the non-Catholic Pope
I understand and respect your position (even though it reeks of sarcasm), just know that I don’t express my opinions to prove what’s right; I’ve learned the hard way that’s a fool’s errand on this discussion forum. I share my views to provoke thought, promote equal respect, and encourage people to grow in their faith in the Lord.
The more you debate with members of other faiths, the better equipped you’ll be when you go out fishing for people in the name of Jesus!
Remember, these discussion do nothing but make us more adamant about our brand of faith. We aren’t convincing anyone outside our faith to abandon their own faith. We are helping each other grow! I believe that’s why God allowed the Church to branch out. It’s a genius that could only come from the Author of the greatest story ever written!
God bless!
Peace!!!
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benhur
Guest
Pilgrim approaches the Pearly Gates of Heaven. In the distance he sees St. Peter. The Pilgrim calls out and asks if there are any Lutherans up there. St. Peter says no. Pilgrim asks if there any Baptists up there. Again Peter says no. Pilgrim continues to ask, any Catholic or Orthodox etc., etc. St Peter continues with his “No’s” but adds, " we don’t go by those names up here". Befuddled Pilgrim then asks ,“Well then please, just who is up there ?” St Peter replies , ''Just those souls who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb"
Again, the “passport” is the bigger concern. Not all passengers on the ship(s) will be admitted.
Steve’s story is much rosier than yours.
**He leaves out problems you cite:an old ship,
creaky and leaky at times,
troubles in the engine room and
the cargo in the hold may be rotting,
tossed about by the winds and stormy seas.
**He includes the very problems I was thinking of when I posted, "both the raft(s) and barque have “problems”.
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benhur
Guest
Amen. The Ties of Truth, in the BodyBoats, ships, barques, all these things to stay afloat…
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
Or of thine own were:
Any man’s death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
by John Donne.
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benhur
Guest
:thankyou: Blessings.Well-played
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yateanieys
Guest
I really enjoyed that
I’m a sucker for decent analogies, but I only say decent because it’s missing the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. You hit most of the sacraments. Annointing of the Sick is there as every liner has an infirmary and Marriage is obvious, but I couldn’t come up with anything for reconciliation or confirmation. I’m interested to see how you fit those in there. No sarcasm God bless you, brother!
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eazyduzit
Guest
Who determines the original meaning of a text? The meaning must first fit the context or it is a pretext. We know that v.9 is not speaking of biological fathers. We also understand that it doesn’t apply to spiritual fathers as in the case of St. Paul. It can therefore only refer to one person, in contrast to vs.8 and 10 which clearly are speaking of more than one. I don’ t believe its that easy to brush aside.
Steve, do you really believe we can have no divisions? Why was St.Paul so concerned about the division in the Corinthian church? What did Paul propose to cure the divisions? Did he say that all must follow Cephas because he is the one unique representative of Christ on earth.
Many seem to think that it is abundantly clear that Mt. 16:18 gives Peter all power over the church and all spiritual things. Yet there is far from universal agreement among the Fathers. Also,without any reason or excuse every one seems to simply assume that the “keys to the kingdom” are the same thing as the “keys to the church”. Is the “kingdom” now the same the same as the “church” in this context?
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Abu
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The reality is that from the early days of Christ’s Catholic Church it was taught it was possible for non–Catholics to receive salvation:
“Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel 20 and given by Him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
[20. See Eusebius of Caesarea, *Praeparatio Evangelica, I, 1: PG 21, 28].
Christ teaches through His Church:
By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors" (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.). [My emphasis].
“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (Pope St John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10).
Thus all salvation for those who are worthy comes through Christ’s Catholic Church whether they know it or not.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
When the founders of this country declared independence, they did not simply print copies of the Constitution and tell everyone to interpret it for themselves. They established the Supreme Court as the final interpreter of the Constitution and the laws of our country.
When Jesus established His Church, he did not simply hand the apostles a complete New Testament and tell everyone to interpret it for themselves. He established the Magisterium of His Church as the final interpreter of the Word of God and the doctrines and disciplines of His Church.
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yateanieys
Guest
So now the CC takes credit for the work of spreading the Gospel in all cases now? I thought salvation came through the blood of Jesus Christ. I digress.
This is exactly what I was talking about with “branching.” We’re still part of the Church regardless of whether or not you put “Catholic” or “Roman” on the front of it.
The way I see it, everything you bolded from Pope Pius said exactly that. Furthermore, what he said applies mainly to people who have never heard the Gospel and are ignorant of the faith. My grandfather lived it, but if someone ever told him that he should to go to confession, he’d literally look at them like they were insane.
What you quoted says one of two things:
*]My grandfather is burning in Hell because he wasn’t part of the Apostolic Roman Church OR
*]He achieved his salvation through the Apostolic Roman Church against his own knowledge by way of one of its venerate offshoots, the Protestant Church, by one of its offshoots, the Pentecostal Church, by one of its offshoots, the Assemblies of God Church
So, #1 or #2? I really hope you say #2, because you would have destroyed your own argument. I can’t see you saying you don’t know, because you seem very sure about everything else, but I don’t think you’ll say #1 since you neglected to bold the part where Pius said “He who does not enter into [the Apostolic RC] will perish in the flood.” I do appreciate your consideration, but I’d rather you’d be honest with me.
btw, I didn’t address the “ignorant” part, because he was definitely not invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith. He actually knew a decent amount about it being a deacon of the church.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
It’s not really a digression…it’s the whole ball of wax. There is only one Church because Christ is the head of only one body. That Church began calling itself Catholic near the end of the first century.
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yateanieys
Guest
Well, what I meant was the AG Church and its members are the ones that set up and fully funded the missionary fund. The last line of Abu’s reply suggested that the CC is responsible for the salvation of those people in other countries even though they had nothing to do with it. It also suggests that if my grandfather achieved his salvation, then he did so through the tenacity of the Catholic Church by way of the Pentecostal branch. He was introduced to the Pentecostal faith and never deviated from it.
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eazyduzit
Guest
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eazyduzit
Guest
Our founders were much wiser than that Randy. They knew if one body were given the final say it would lead to a kind of tyranny all over again. That is why we have a 3-way balance of powers. These men were Protestants! They understood the nature of men, and unlike today, they prayed to God first, before acting.
Before Jesus left, he promised to send the Holy Spirit, not the Magical Magisterium, to remind us of all things He had said.
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Abu
Guest
As Christ clearly and unequivocally founded only His Catholic Church, She is the only means of salvation. All who are saved can be saved only through Her.
“Familiarity” with Catholicism does not necessarily mean that such a state translates into knowing that the Catholic Church is founded by Christ to teach, rule and sanctify mankind. Anyone who knowingly rejects Christ’s means of salvation (His Church) knowingly rejects Him, and condemns himself.
In the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(CCC #848), “the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 [The reference 338 includes Heb 11:6 saying that God rewards those who believe and diligently seek Him; and 1 Cor 9:16 in which Paul says “woe to me if I do not preach the gospel.”]
The Church is the Pope, Bishops, priests and lay faithful (the People of God, the Mystical Body of Christ) all of whom have the obligation to offer the gospel to all according to their formation in the faith, and opportunities.
His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end” Jesus rebuked in earlier days: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 8:17-18). So, having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, on whom He founded His Church, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20).
Nothing can truthfully be said against the foundation by Christ of the Catholic Church for teaching, ruling and sanctifying, and the fact that She alone has the fullness of Truth. It is to the great benefit of all to investigate and accept this reality. “If he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17). Who has the authority to deny Christ? “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 8:17-18).
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