Okay. I perused the entire thread. Here are some of the answers given:Of course, as I’ve said.
I would gently say that it has been answered from many non-Catholics (as I and others have done on this very board), but of course the answer isn’t accepted. Just as the answers that Catholics give are not accepted by Protestants on many issues… if they were we wouldn’t be talking about them now.
Grace and peace,
K
I don’t wonder why; I know why. The answers we give will never be accepted as answers because you are coming from the Catholic position. Further, those that you list are taken out of responses that are a lot longer than one line. The question is “What is your authority” the answer isn’t “what” it is Who; God. It is the exact same answer Catholics give only it is applied differently.Okay. I perused the entire thread. Here are some of the answers given:
Do you wonder why we keep asking?
- The Word of God.
- the church that rightly proclaims the Gospel and administers the Sacraments.
- my relationship with my father, and that I am in covenant with Him
- God, and my husband
Peace.
Steve
While "Who is your authority is one question, “what” is your authority is also a legitimate question and the topic of this thread What authority have you received? “When” was this authority given to you? “How” was this authority given to you? These are questions that have not been answered.I don’t wonder why; I know why. The answers we give will never be accepted as answers because you are coming from the Catholic position. Further, those that you list are taken out of responses that are a lot longer than one line. The question is “What is your authority” the answer isn’t “what” it is Who; God. It is the exact same answer Catholics give only it is applied differently.
I’m confused. So God has given authority to everyone to infallibly interpret scripture? It is up to everyone to come to their infallible conclusion as God speaks to them individually? How can that be? As I understand it, God gave His authority to only one entity on earth, His Church.I don’t wonder why; I know why. The answers we give will never be accepted as answers because you are coming from the Catholic position. Further, those that you list are taken out of responses that are a lot longer than one line. The question is “What is your authority” the answer isn’t “what” it is Who; God. It is the exact same answer Catholics give only it is applied differently.
What you really mean here, rainman, when you boil it down, is that as you understand it, “His Church” means “the Pope.”I’m confused. So God has given authority to everyone to infallibly interpret scripture? It is up to everyone to come to their infallible conclusion as God speaks to them individually? How can that be? As I understand it, God gave His authority to only one entity on earth, His Church.
I understand not trying to belabor a point. I do have to point out that the questions have been answered. I understand why you think they haven’t been, as the answers don’t match the teaching of the RCC in a way that is acceptable. Who is your authority; God. The question “what” is your authority doesn’t make sense, as the One in Authority is God Who has all the power, glory and authority. God gave and gives Himself in many ways, one of which is by the Holy Spirit. Catholics believe it is limited in a special way to the Pope and the Magisterium, we don’t see it limited that way. The record of the Holy Spirit and how He was and is working is given in the NT. Protestants and Catholics interpret some of those passages the same, and some different.While "Who is your authority is one question, “what” is your authority is also a legitimate question and the topic of this thread What authority have you received? “When” was this authority given to you? “How” was this authority given to you? These are questions that have not been answered.
I am not interested in belaboring this, I just want you to understand why we think the question has not been answered.
Thanks.
Steve
No, again, only God is infallible.I’m confused. So God has given authority to everyone to infallibly interpret scripture?
It is the Holy Spirit’s role to lead and guide. One of the ways He has done so is via scripture.It is up to everyone to come to their infallible conclusion as God speaks to them individually?
God retains His authority, upon that we are all in agreement; meaning He didn’t give it away to exclusion of Himself. The church is the collection of all those who trust (faithe) in Him, who are a part of His Body, with Him as the head.How can that be? As I understand it, God gave His authority to only one entity on earth, His Church.
Right; the ekklesia are all the outcalled ones. I would add that, as I understand it, the Catholic church also teaches the Magisterium is also infallible in effect, when specific pronouncements.What you really mean here, rainman, when you boil it down, is that as you understand it, “His Church” means “the Pope.”
Am I right, or wrong?
Essentially, ISTM, that is the final locus of authority in Catholicism, since bishops are merely the Pope’s auxiliaries or representatives. So when you quote, say, 1 Timothy, can you explain why your presupposition of “the church” equals “the Pope” is what Paul was referencing?
As opposed to the entire people of God, which is what Paul actually means by “church.”
Indeed. However, anything pronounced by the magisterium must ultimately be agreed upon by the Pope. Some have accused the Catholic Church of being sola ecclesia. In actuality, that’s far too broad. It is sola papam.Right; the ekklesia are all the outcalled ones. I would add that, as I understand it, the Catholic church also teaches the Magisterium is also infallible in effect, when specific pronouncements.
Hi. I wanted to clarify that in Catholic teaching there is a harmony between primacy and collegiality. Vatican II clarified this to some extent to my understanding. This is a pre-Vatican II source, but I recommend . Catholic Encyclopedia For the “Mutual relations of the organs of infallibility”, scroll down to the section under that heading.Indeed. However, anything pronounced by the magisterium must ultimately be agreed upon by the Pope. Some have accused the Catholic Church of being sola ecclesia. In actuality, that’s far too broad. It is sola papam.
Agreed, 2 different interpretations can’t be correct & yes God’s meaning is correct. If you think about it, why would He leave His Word, to guide the people He loves and wants to save & not give us a way to figure it out. He loves us, so He left the Catholic Church, to give us truth.… 2 mutually exclusive interpretations can’t be correct. It isn’t the human interpretation that is correct by default, it is God’s meaning that is correct.
What do you do when it revolves around more than Jesus’ existence. Issues like baptism or works things regarding one’s salvation or someone you are responsible for’s salvation.… If someone claims Jesus did not exist, our Apologetic is to point to the fact that He did indeed exist. Now, when talking about meaning, the teaching is that the Holy Spirit won’t lead them down the wrong path, not that they should listen to me. We should be wary of people that make those types of claims, as that is one of the hallmarks of a cult.
If there was only one letter that needed Holy Spirit guidance to determine if it was inspired, there would still need to be someone authorized by God to determine that.… there were actually only a few books, letters, etc… that were heavily contended. The bulk were “organically” identified. Also, don’t forget protestants believe in the Church as well, we just don’t believe in it in the precise way that Catholics do.
When I speak of half truths, or innuendos I am referring to the fact that something either is or it isn’t. It isn’t partly. Either you can lose your salvation or you can’t. It isn’t both. Either baptism is required or it isn’t. Either Jesus was born of a virgin or he wasn’t.In essence what you present is a circular basis for an argument, and that’s ok, it’s just not something that can “prove” itself in a logical way.
We don’t believe that it is just through a group of men that we are guided. We don’t believe it is the Pope alone that we are guided. We believe it is the Word of God, the Magisterium (Pope and Bishops) &Tradition ( true Faith itself, given to the Apostles by Christ and faithfully transmitted to each new generation. (CCC77-78)And that’s a big difference; the Catholic way of looking at interpretation is one step removed from a general protestant way of looking at it. You also believe the Holy Spirit leads and guides, just not the individual believer in the way He guides a select group of men. You have faith that God guides them, and hence you listen to them. I have faith God can and does guide individual believers in the same manner you believe God guides those men.
I use to think Catholics believe that also but truth is Catholics do not believe that either. We do not believe the Pope and Bishops are **never **wrong or never fail.I don’t see it promised in scripture that there will be an infallible group of men that are never wrong… I wish that I did.
He did tell them who to listen to. Luke 10:16. Who ever hears you, hears me. Also in Matthew Jesus said he was building a Church. In 1 Timothy 3:16 Paul exhorts us that the place of pillar and truth is the Church.… If there was a group to listen to, why did not Paul, Peter, John, etc… explicitly tell people to always listen to this group and they’d never go wrong. I don’t see that in scripture, I see the opposite, I even read Paul warning that if he should preach a different gospel not to listen to him. It’s not a comforting view, I admit.
Wrong.Per Crucem #537
What you really mean here, rainman, when you boil it down, is that as you understand it, “His Church” means “the Pope.”
Am I right, or wrong?
Such a feeling is a distortion of reality as “The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme teaching office. (Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium *25).Essentially, ISTM, that is the final locus of authority in Catholicism, since bishops are merely the Pope’s auxiliaries or representatives. So when you quote, say, 1 Timothy, can you explain why your presupposition of “the church” equals “the Pope” is what Paul was referencing?
I truly appreciate your concern, let us pray for one another, with the understanding that we do indeed both love the Lord and profess God the Son; Jesus Christ who lived, was crucified and rose the 3rd day.God is a loving God and Kliska he wants you to know the truth too.
God bless.
Agreed.I truly appreciate your concern, let us pray for one another, with the understanding that we do indeed both love the Lord and profess God the Son; Jesus Christ who lived, was crucified and rose the 3rd day.
Grace and peace,
K
Can the Pope do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, apart from the college of bishops and regardless of their approval?Hi. I wanted to clarify that in Catholic teaching there is a harmony between primacy and collegiality. Vatican II clarified this to some extent to my understanding. This is a pre-Vatican II source, but I recommend the article on infallibility in the Catholic Encyclopedia. For the “Mutual relations of the organs of infallibility”, scroll down to the section under that heading.
He could not, for example, declare that adultery is not a sin and bind the Church to that belief.Can the Pope do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, apart from the college of bishops and regardless of their approval?
That would be an extreme example. He wouldn’t, because he knows it would fly in the face of tradition. However, strictly speaking, according to Vatican I, he very well could change it (as it was, in fact, changed vis a vie the filioque).He could not, for example, declare that adultery is not a sin and bind the Church to that belief.
The Pope does not always speak with Magisterial Authority. Just because the Pope may say something in a Homily that doesn’t mean that what he says is from the place of Magisterial Authority. However, there are times The Pope will speak with Magisterial Authority and the process that enables The Pope to speak with Magisterial Authority on any given topic, I assume, involves a process. He can’t just say, “today I think I’m going to speak with Magisterial Authority,” No there’s a process.Can the Pope do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, apart from the college of bishops and regardless of their approval?
What prevents him from doing that?The Pope does not always speak with Magisterial Authority. Just because the Pope may say something in a Homily that doesn’t mean that what he says is from the place of Magisterial Authority. However, there are times The Pope will speak with Magisterial Authority and the process that enables The Pope to speak with Magisterial Authority on any given topic, I assume, involves a process. He can’t just say, “today I think I’m going to speak with Magisterial Authority,” No there’s a process.
Ultimately, the Holy Spirit. Speaking with magisterial authority would always involve a serious matter of faith or morals. We follow the counciliar model, just as Peter and the Apostles did at the Council of Jerusalem. After much discussion, Peter rose and the assembly fell silent.What prevents him from doing that?