P
Per_Crucem
Guest
Was it because of his papal authority, though, or because they were afraid he’d cut their ear off?
Final decision was James…ahem
- Status
Final decision was James…ahem
S
SteveVH
Guest
Good question. Maybe a little bit of both.Was it because of his papal authority, though, or because they were afraid he’d cut their ear off?
Final decision was James…ahem
R
rainman10
Guest
So, then, lets say that PerCrucem and Kliska are having a discussion about salvation, but they have two differing beliefs. How do they determine who is right and who is wrong? One or both could be wrong, how is it determined? You can’t say God is the final authority, because at least one of them is wrong, and God would not lie to them.
T
thenobes
Guest
Ooh, ooh, I know! I know!They should take one or more of their brothers in faith and discuss the matter with the other, so that every point can be established in the presence of two witnesses.
If they still don’t agree, then they should take their disagreement to the whole Church…uh …but…
Wait a minute…uh …which Church???
And Uh, how would this work with the first disagreements within the Church? …hmmmm. There would be too many people to get together to decide the matter.
I know!
I guess they could have a council, with Peter attending, to handle the matter!
But how about later? …hmmm. ISTM there would always have be a visible Church to decide this, or either side could just claim they belong to the TRUE church.
So the pre-existing Church has the claim to decide rightly (sort of like in a baseball game the tie goes to the runner).
Hmmm… what would this preexisting church look like, say, in Luther’s time?
peace
steve
K
Kliska
Guest
We’d be having pie and coffee, along with our discussion. Very important.
Here is what I currently believe; we have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we have to be willing to pray and humble ourselves, we have to be willing to read Holy Scripture, and study them. That being said, and I truly mean this, you take the mainstream churches and actually sit people down to talk, and our discussions about salvation won’t differ that much. As an example, just look at the dialogues between Lutherans and Catholics, or even Evangelical Protestants and Catholics. When Christians come together and truly seek out the POV of those involved we figure out we aren’t that far off. Can we say the Apostle’s creed together, and all that implies? Surely so.
God is indeed the final authority (as both protestants and Catholics do agree on). And God indeed would not lie to either of us, but it is up to us, as individuals to seek God and seek truth. We all have to clean the earwax out of our ears, get the planks out of our own eyes. Each believer is at a different place, we are not all going to agree on everything, not even Catholics all agree even when the CCC is right there on the table.
Catholics believe the Magisterium works very similarly and is guided by the Spirit. I believe the Spirit guides believers individually or else we would never even be able to come to the truth at all. The difference is, PerCrucem and I aren’t bound together in a group where majority, or the “leader” has the final say. Pro’s and Con’s to each way of being. I’m certainly not telling anyone to believe me, but rather to believe God, including His Spirit, and His word, I’m still learning and growing, and I don’t have all the answers, but God does. He promises us wisdom if we ask, and if we seek we will find, I hope we all are heeding Him.
Grace and peace to you,
K
E
eazyduzit
Guest
Let’s say our 2 brothers were in a NT church. What would it look like?
They should take one or more of their brothers in faith and discuss the matter with the other, so that every point can be established in the presence of two witnesses.
If they still don’t agree, then they should take their disagreement to the whole Church…uh …but…
Wait a minute…uh …which Church???
And Uh, how would this work with the first disagreements within the Church? …hmmmm. There would be too many people to get together to decide the matter.
I know!
I guess they could have a council, with Peter attending, to handle the matter!
But how about later? …hmmm. ISTM there would always have be a visible Church to decide this, or either side could just claim they belong to the TRUE church.
So the pre-existing Church has the claim to decide rightly (sort of like in a baseball game the tie goes to the runner).
Hmmm… what would this preexisting church look like, say, in Luther’s time?
peace
steve
Notice that in the church of Pergamos (Rev2) that there were some that held the doctrine of Balaam, and some had the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which the Lord hates, but there were also some who did not deny His faith (v.13). Then in Thyatira there were some who tolerated a Jezebel prophetess, but in v.24 Jesus says to “as many who have not this doctrine…” And then of Sardis Jesus says “thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled theirgarments”.
Evidently, they were free to follow the voice of truth or error. Some knew the true faith. Some did not. As Jesus said in Jn.10:4,5 “they know His voice. And a stranger they will not follow.” This is the way Jesus set things up. He gives people the freedom to follow what they choose. How then do we know the true Church? You will know them by their fruits, not by their authority. Even in true churches there will be error. That much is guaranteed (acts20:30, 1Tm4:1 and many other warnings).
A
Abu
Guest
- The Pope is restrained by God from TEACHING error in dogma or doctrine to the whole Church on a mater of faith or morals as explained in Vatican I, thus he is unable to TEACH IN THAT WAY – as dogma or doctrine – “whatever he wants, whenever he wants”.
- In defining, a Pope teaches the whole Church on faith or morals as Vatican I defined:
*Pa**stor Aeternus *Chapter 4.
“On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff
- Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.”
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
Just to revisit this for a moment. My point wasn’t whether the Pope is or isn’t restrained from error. The context was one of relative authority. Clearly, from a juridical standpoint (vis a vie Vatican I) the Pope is the final authority within Catholicism. The bishops are ultimately his vicars since they neither share authority with him nor serve as a corrective.
P
pablope
Guest
But we do have a way…of knowing the truth…1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
In the CC…and the Orthodox…we know who the “us” is…in protestants…the “us” could be the individual, the pastor, the Bible…
…who knows…
P
pablope
Guest
E
eazyduzit
Guest
God also gave revelations to John and Paul, but that doesn’t give them more personal authority.
S
SjMelnychuk
Guest
The Pope doesn’t have personal authority on his own. There are times The Pope does not speak with Magisterial Authority but only The Pope can speak with Magisterial Authority but it’s not an Authority on his own and of his own.
Of course, if Jesus appointed and established a living voice of Apostolic Authority that began with Peter as the first Pope one could readily argue that at certain times Peter exercised an Apostolic Authority given to him by Jesus and we see this when Peter preached to the multitude and some 3000 people were added to the Church that day… on the day of Pentecost.
S
SjMelnychuk
Guest
Speaking with Magisterial Authority only happens after The Pope consults with a Counsel. I believe the answer to this question was best answered in a previous comment. However, to simplify it …
When The Pope speaks with Magisterial Authority it’s usually after a Counsel Meeting. So when The Pope speaks with Magisterial Authority he speaks in the unity with the Magisterium. In order for The Pope to speak with Magisterial Authority on any given topic there is a long drawn out process. The Pope can’t just say something and say he’s speaking with authority just because he wants to.
So, in short, what’s stopping him?
The process. The way it’s always been done historically within the context of The Church.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Umm… pardon?
I think you’re forgetting about (part of) the extraordinary magisterium – it can be either a pronouncement of the pope or of an ecumenical council.
A
Abu
Guest
The misunderstandings previously expressed concerning the Pope, are now accompanied by misunderstandings concerning the bishops.
Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) #22:“The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.
This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*) This college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the People of God, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of Christ. In it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole Church, the Holy Spirit supporting its organic structure and harmony with moderation. **The supreme power in the universal Church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. *A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter; and it is prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them.(29) This same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act.
“The supreme power in the universal Church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter; and it is prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them. This same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act."[My emphasis].
tinyurl.com/3wxff
Thus the decisions of an Ecumenical Council demonstrate and reflect the exercise of shared collegial authority, with and through the Vicar Of Christ.
S
SjMelnychuk
Guest
ummm … not arguing against that … my point was that Pope Francis or any Pope for that matter cannot just say they’re speaking with Authority … it is a specific Authority.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
Actually, I didn’t bring up the Jerusalem Council at all. Yes, Peter received the vision in Acts 10. Paul was told to preach to the Gentiles before that by Christ, does that give Paul primacy at the Jerusalem Council?
K
Kliska
Guest
Context:But we do have a way…of knowing the truth…1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
In the CC…and the Orthodox…we know who the “us” is…in protestants…the “us” could be the individual, the pastor, the Bible…
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
The “us” here is obviously referencing the Apostles as preaching the Gospel of Jesus. There are those that believe and proclaim “Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh” including most Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. Those that are of the world deny that Jesus is from God.
Protestants do listen to the Apostles.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
Canons of Vatican I
Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that
he is the supreme judge of the faithful , and that
in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment .
The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone,
nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon . And so
they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.
Again…the final and ultimate authority is the Pope. That’s all I’ve been saying. Sola Papam.
- Status