What's Your Authority?

[SjMelnychuk]

Lectio Divina - Latin for Divine Reading

This is a traditional Benedictine practice of scriptural reading, meditation, and prayer intended to promote communion with God and to increase the knowledge of God’s Word. The roots of scriptural reflection and interpretation go back to Origen in the 3rd century after whom St Ambrose taught them to St Augustine. The Monastic practice was first established in the 6th Century by St Benedict.

I started this discipline long before I knew what Lectio Divina was. In fact, this was before I was welcomed into full communion with the Catholic Church. I was sharing this discipline to an Anglican friend of mine who then told me that I was practicing the discipline of Lectio Divina. God through His Holy Spirit lead me to this practice. It opened up God’s word to me in a way that revitalized the word of God for me. My understanding of God’s word grew. It was also this discipline that inspired me to learn more about the Early Church Fathers. And since the Early Church Fathers were Catholic I was even more intrigued by the Catholic Faith since now a Catholic Discipline was influencing my understanding of Sacred Scripture and faith journey before I even knew it was a Catholic discipline. Go figure eh

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Catholics do seem to believe that theHS cannot bring unity and as one poster seemed to imply that He brings differences. However, I agree you are right that an infallible authority should not prevent people from hearing God, it tends to be a substitute and promotes a spiritual lazyness when we think others will do it for us. Yet the word still proclaims that the sheep hear God’s voice.

I understand how you would not think this could work since it does not seem to work at all in the Protestant churches. But should this be the reason why we won’t pursue unity through the HS? I believe the problem is that believers have not been taught how to come into His presence. Also, drawing nere to God is the part that takes much time, sacrifice, and personal dedication. I am afraid that it is few who love God this much. We don’t believe it is worth it
to pray, worship, and journal for 4 or 5 hours every day. Have you ever read “Practicing the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence? God’s best servants or saints knew Him in this intimate way. They did not need babysitting. Shall we continue to make excuses that we can’t be like them? This is not what God would have.

What about the question of gay marriage? The churches of God should know what the bible says without any question. It is so clear that you need someone to help you misunderstand what it means. More important is to proclaim the truth to the world. Does it convince unbelievers to hear “the Church teaches…” No, they don’t care about your church. But if I say “God’s word says…”, then that carries more weight.

I’d like to respond to more of your response. Just one thing, please don’t misquote me and then say we agree on what you’ve just misquoted me on. I want to make that correction but I’d rather wait until I’m home so I can use my lap top instead of the phone I’m currently using. My phone can be too limiting.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Catholics do seem to believe that theHS cannot bring unity and as one poster seemed to imply that He brings differences.

FIRST: Catholics do believe the Holy Spirit can and does bring unity. Who says we don’t?

The point we bring up time and time again is the fact that just because you think God spoke to you that don’t mean He did. Many think they are lead of the Spirit but in truth they were not.

The discussion here is not about whether or not we can discern the leading of God’s Spirit in our lives but really teachings that say our sole rule / authority for faith and life is the Bible and only the Bible or Sola Scriptural teachings.

Pentecostals would include the guidance and discernment that comes when being lead of the Spirit however, in that sense the bible believing Pentecostal basically becomes their own Pope so to speak placing their perceived guidance of the Holy Spirit and their own fallible interpretation of Sacred Scripture. The question is, how do you know that you’ve discerned the voice of God? How do you know you’ve interpreted Sacred Scripture correctly? If it were that simple don’t you think that all Churches would agree on major doctrine? But we don’t always agree on major doctrine. But you probably don’t think I’ve discerned God’s voice in my life because I left the Pentecostal Church and became Catholic. You probably assume I’m just a lazy Catholic with a lazy spirituality etc.

However, I agree you are right that an infallible authority should not prevent people from hearing God, it tends to be a substitute and promotes a spiritual lazyness when we think others will do it for us. Yet the word still proclaims that the sheep hear God’s voice.

You honestly believe that Catholics are so lazy we think that the Pope substitutes our relationship with God? If that’s what you believe than you’re more ignorant about Catholic spirituality and discipline than I thought.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Also, drawing nere to God is the part that takes much time, sacrifice, and personal dedication. I am afraid that it is few who love God this much. We don’t believe it is worth it to pray, worship, and journal for 4 or 5 hours every day.

Before you judge the spiritual discipline and practices of Catholics I highly recommend that you do a little research and become a little more acquainted with Catholic spirituality and discipline. I assure you, it’s far from what you currently believe but of course I give you the benefit of the doubt. You didn’t have a Catholic Grandmother as I’ve had to show you that Catholics have a very Ritch, full, and fervent prayer life and who depend on God for living the life we’re called into as followers of Christ.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

What about the question of gay marriage? The churches of God should know what the bible says without any question. It is so clear that you need someone to help you misunderstand what it means. More important is to proclaim the truth to the world. Does it convince unbelievers to hear “the Church teaches…” No, they don’t care about your church. But if I say “God’s word says…”, then that carries more weight.

And here’s my point, whole denominations are not only ordaining gay ministers but are affirming gay marriage.

If what you say is true Pro-Gay Theology wouldn’t be the hot button controversial topic with multiple sides. Christians wouldn’t become affirming of gay marriage let alone allowing gay marriage. Ministries like The Gay Christian Network wouldn’t be affirmed by the many churches and whole denominations but rather every Church would be able to discern the herecy with pro-gay theology but instead a great multitude of whole Protestant main stream churches are now affirming pro-gay theology. If it were that simple to spot the herecy then why are so many churches affirming gay marriage now? And why are people not seeing the heresy? Many educated Christians present a very misleading theology. Their arguments are clever enough to turn whole denominations. I see the heresy but many with a higher education than me do not. It baffles me!!!

 

[Magdalena59]

In all the Pentecostal churches I have experienced, the people were unified. Disagreement happens because most people just go on feelings, not really hearing exactly…

So, then what you are saying is that those other protestant churches who understand or believe scripture differently than you or the Pentecostal churches are going on feelings.
How can you tell who is following their feelings or following the Holy Spirit?
And if someone in your Pentecostal Church does not agree with your interpretation of a Bible verse, they are just following their feelings and not really hearing.

The Bible says that the sheep know the shepherd’s voice and a stranger they will not follow. Should we not believe God’s word? Or do we keep second guessing and not believing? .

Oh, I believe we should believe God’s word and follow it. I just don’t believe we should follow your belief of what God’s Word says. I have many protestant churches around me that would disagree with you.

Jesus still says to the churches: “he who hath an ear, let him hear”. That is how He communicates with His churches. He put His Holy Spirit in every one who is baptised in the HS. This is how a mature church is to operate. This is the ideal. It is not ours to question. If a believer does not hear, he cannot follow and will not know his part in God’s plan and there will be confusion. .

How do you know the Pentecostals, those who started in Azusa street, understand scripture correctly? Maybe the Presbyterians are correct? Maybe the Lutherans? Maybe the Amish or other Anabaptists are correct? What about the Mormons? Or the Jehovah witnesses, they believe they are led by the Holy Spirit also and have a totally different idea of who the Holy Spirit even is. Or are these denominations just going on their feelings?

Creating a central authority is not a fix or a substitute. It is not what God would have, It does not foster the maturity of believers but is a baby sitting operation. So why do we keep insisting it is the only way?.Because our mind is so earth-bound?

We insist because it is the way God chose. You may not agree with it but that is choosing to disagree with God’s way. It is in essence saying “I know better than God”
I agree it is not a fix or a substitute. It is what God chose. It is the visible living witness of Christ on Earth. It is a most beautiful gift.

The earthbound person says I have to have it my way, not God’s way. Just as the rebellious child or teen say he has to do things his way, despite the truth coming from his parent, he chooses not to listen.

Are you saying the HS leads in all different directions? Is that your objection? Sorry, but it is never possible for Him to miss lead.

No, I am not saying the Holy Spirit leads in different directions. That would be protestant belief. Protestant belief says, the Holy Spirit leads me without any help from anyone else. It may be different than you, but I am right and you are probably just following your feelings or he is just leading you different than me. We will all know the truth when we get to heaven and then we will know who was right and who was wrong. Those are all protestant ideas.

Catholic teaching is that the Holy Spirit leads us to the fullness of truth. He leads us to what is one truth. God’s truth.

I am a revert so I have been there in the mix of all the protestant beliefs, I know what it looks like. I sat in the mix of large groups of different protestants disagreeing over Bible verses and what they mean and what their church teaches, just to walk away and say okay, well we will know the truth when we get to heaven. I was there for a long time and could not stand all the confusion.

I am not saying protestants do not know or have some truth because they do but they do not contain the whole truth and any truth that the protestant churches have is because of the Catholic church that Our Lord Jesus gave to us.

Without the whole truth it is easy to be led astray.
God bless.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

So, then what you are saying is that those other protestant churches who understand or believe scripture differently than you or the Pentecostal churches are going on feelings.
How can you tell who is following their feelings or following the Holy Spirit?
And if someone in your Pentecostal Church does not agree with your interpretation of a Bible verse, they are just following their feelings and not really hearing.

Having been a Pentecostal believer at one point, the one thing many Pentecostal believers wouldn’t want to let you or anyone they’re in “dialogue” with know, or a few points they wouldn’t want to let you know:

1. Pentecostal’s have the fullness of Truth because they are closest to the early church ie Day of Pentecost.
2. My Sheep know my voice - ie Pentecostal’s know God’s voice because they are Pentecostal. If you are not as spiritual as the Pentecostal, if you are not “baptized with the Holy Spirit” you cannot know fully the voice of God because when you are baptized with the Holy Spirit you receive power to be His witnesses. So how can you err if you are baptized with the Holy Spirit? Well, but of course, you have to be truly baptized with the Holy Spirit in order to really truly not be in error. Because when you are baptized with the Holy Spirit you are Priest, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor … but of course Pentecostal’s won’t necessarily come out and actually say all this, heaven forbid because that would just be arrogant and rather Pharisaical.
3. Only the Pentecostal’s have the correct interpretation of Sacred Scriptures so if you disagree with the theology of a Pentecostal you don’t have the fullness of truth, and because the Pentecostal ALWAYS hears the voice of God because the Pentecostal has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, you know, because the Holy Spirit guarantees to lead all people into all truth if we hear His voice but since you’re not a Pentecostal and therefore probably not baptized with the Holy Spirit you probably don’t have the full truth or even lead by the Holy Spirit because only those baptized with the Holy Spirit are truly the one’s lead by the Spirit. And if you say anything differently than you are the one in error. Even if the opposite is proved because you know, satan comes like an angel of light, so if anything appears to be true but isn’t actually true than it’s demonic. So, therefore, the Catholic faith is demonic because the true Church that Jesus Christ established well, if it had been the Catholic Church before, it’s fallen prey to the demonic and so the Catholic Church has lost God’s favor and so now God’s favor is with the Pentecostal Church, we know because the Pentecostal Church has had the day of Pentecost re-visited.
4. You can’t say this isn’t true because I’ve been there, and I’ve had many many many many discussions especially in Bible College among other Pentecostal believers. If you are not truly Pentecostal you’re not truly accepted. So if you have questions or concerns than something is wrong with your faith. And if something is wrong with your faith you’re going to be lead astray because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But isn’t it funny how the phrase, “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God,” it’s funny how many of these little scriptural verses are taken out of context which strengthens the Pentecostal Theology. Take these little tiny scriptural verses and place them back into context, it’s amazing what happens to Pentecostal Theology. You realize that Pentecostal Theology is set on a faulty foundation that just crumbles when these little tiny scriptural verses are placed back into context.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

How do you know the Pentecostals, those who started in Azusa street, understand scripture correctly? Maybe the Presbyterians are correct? Maybe the Lutherans? Maybe the Amish or other Anabaptists are correct? What about the Mormons? Or the Jehovah witnesses, they believe they are led by the Holy Spirit also and have a totally different idea of who the Holy Spirit even is. Or are these denominations just going on their feelings?

That’s a very good question. The Pentecostal would say that signs follow the believer. But in the context of scripture signs don’t always follow the believer. You have people who stand before God saying … Lord Lord didn’t I heal the sick, didn’t I raise the dead and do this all for you, and Jesus will say, depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you," those are some pretty strong words there. It means that signs don’t always follow just the believer. What the Pentecostal will say, is that you don’t have the fullness of truth if you’re not Pentecostal. They are also quick to point out that Mormons and JW’s are cults and not among the Protestant Tradition. But here’s our point made as Catholics. Bible Alone, Sola Scriptura teaching had made possible Mormon and JW teaching. They too believe they have the fullness of truth … and Mormons they believe they are the only one’s truly lead of the Spirit because they experienced the “burning of Abrahams boosem” the sure tell sign that you have the Spirit… and they’re so certain they are the ones truly lead by the Spirit. They are so sure of themselves just like the Pentecostal believer.

I have to admit though, if it were not for my Pentecostal experience, if it were not for the mentoring relationship I had with my Pentecostal Youth Pastor and his wife I wouldn’t be a Christian today. I would have rejected the Church and everything the Church stood for. So I give credit where credit is due.

***There is some truth in the Pentecostal Church.

But really, if we’re honest, if we really take these little tiny scriptural verses back into its context we’ll discover that the fulfilment of our Pentecostal experience is only found in the Catholic Church.

---

 

[Magdalena59]

That’s a very good question. The Pentecostal would say that signs follow the believer. But in the context of scripture signs don’t always follow the believer. You have people who stand before God saying … Lord Lord didn’t I heal the sick, didn’t I raise the dead and do this all for you, and Jesus will say, depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you," those are some pretty strong words there. It means that signs don’t always follow just the believer. What the Pentecostal will say, is that you don’t have the fullness of truth if you’re not Pentecostal. They are also quick to point out that Mormons and JW’s are cults and not among the Protestant Tradition. But here’s our point made as Catholics. Bible Alone, Sola Scriptura teaching had made possible Mormon and JW teaching. They too believe they have the fullness of truth … and Mormons they believe they are the only one’s truly lead of the Spirit because they experienced the “burning of Abrahams boosem” the sure tell sign that you have the Spirit… and they’re so certain they are the ones truly lead by the Spirit. They are so sure of themselves just like the Pentecostal believer.

I have to admit though, if it were not for my Pentecostal experience, if it were not for the mentoring relationship I had with my Pentecostal Youth Pastor and his wife I wouldn’t be a Christian today. I would have rejected the Church and everything the Church stood for. So I give credit where credit is due.

***There is some truth in the Pentecostal Church.

But really, if we’re honest, if we really take these little tiny scriptural verses back into its context we’ll discover that the fulfilment of our Pentecostal experience is only found in the Catholic Church.

---

Thank you. I didn’t realize all that. I used to listen to certain Pentecostals before I reverted to the Catholic church. That puts alot of things in perspective. I agree about there being some truth in the Pentecostal church, as well as in others.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Thank you. I didn’t realize all that. I used to listen to certain Pentecostals before I reverted to the Catholic church. That puts alot of things in perspective. I agree about there being some truth in the Pentecostal church, as well as in others.

Giving the benefit of the doubt because not all Pentecostal’s are as I’ve described but a good lot of them are like that. At least the one’s I’ve come across.

 

[eazyduzit]

Before you judge the spiritual discipline and practices of Catholics I highly recommend that you do a little research and become a little more acquainted with Catholic spirituality and discipline. I assure you, it’s far from what you currently believe but of course I give you the benefit of the doubt. You didn’t have a Catholic Grandmother as I’ve had to show you that Catholics have a very Ritch, full, and fervent prayer life and who depend on God for living the life we’re called into as followers of Christ.

Sorry, but I did not specify Catholics at all. I meant that to apply to all Christians because human nature is the same for all. When Jesus asked the apostles to stay awake and pray for an hour, they all fell asleep. I would have too.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Perhaps I need to apologize for coming across a little harshly towards our Pentecostal brothers and sisters. Perhaps there’s a few unresolved issues there that I still need to process through and need to extend greater mercy towards Pentecostals.

All that said here’s the questions I keep asking that are never really answered.

The basic belief:

Jesus said, “my sheep know me and know my voice”

Question is, how do we know for certain? How do we know we’ve discerned right?

The bible says to test the spirits right? You can’t just blindly accept that what you believe is God’s voice really is God’s voice.

The usual response is by prayer and meditation of Sacred Scripture.

Well, there’s an obvious gap there if our interpretation of Sacred Scripture is wrong. And that all said, telling a Pentecostal their interpretation could be wrong is ignored or a response that isn’t truly adequate enough is given like just pray more, seek God more etc etc and all this is good but many people not just Pentecostals will turn to non-Catholic sources to find out exactly what Catholics believe and be given false information and anti-Catholic propaganda that is quite easily debunked but they’ll still believe it without question when really all they have to do is just research the Early Church Fathers but Catholic sources according to non-Catholics are well, just not credible enough.

As a Catholic we have Sacred Scripture plus Tradition plus Papal Authority so that when we are discerning we can turn to not just Sacred Scripture but also Tradition and historical teachings that have remained consistent since the Church was first established. To me that has greater credibility than to just just in my own interpretation of Sacred Scripture because I could be wrong but how can I argue against consistent teaching over the span of 2000+ years, teaching that pre-dates the canonization of Sacred Scripture?

So one of my last questions is, what hinders a non-Catholic from researching the writings of the Early Church Fathers?

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Sorry, but I did not specify Catholics at all. I meant that to apply to all Christians because human nature is the same for all. When Jesus asked the apostles to stay awake and pray for an hour, they all fell asleep. I would have too.

OK … Fare enough

 

[eazyduzit]

That’s a very good question. The Pentecostal would say that signs follow the believer. But in the context of scripture signs don’t always follow the believer. You have people who stand before God saying … Lord Lord didn’t I heal the sick, didn’t I raise the dead and do this all for you, and Jesus will say, depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you," those are some pretty strong words there. It means that signs don’t always follow just the believer. What the Pentecostal will say, is that you don’t have the fullness of truth if you’re not Pentecostal. They are also quick to point out that Mormons and JW’s are cults and not among the Protestant Tradition. But here’s our point made as Catholics. Bible Alone, Sola Scriptura teaching had made possible Mormon and JW teaching. They too believe they have the fullness of truth … and Mormons they believe they are the only one’s truly lead of the Spirit because they experienced the “burning of Abrahams boosem” the sure tell sign that you have the Spirit… and they’re so certain they are the ones truly lead by the Spirit. They are so sure of themselves just like the Pentecostal believer.

I have to admit though, if it were not for my Pentecostal experience, if it were not for the mentoring relationship I had with my Pentecostal Youth Pastor and his wife I wouldn’t be a Christian today. I would have rejected the Church and everything the Church stood for. So I give credit where credit is due.

***There is some truth in the Pentecostal Church.

But really, if we’re honest, if we really take these little tiny scriptural verses back into its context we’ll discover that the fulfilment of our Pentecostal experience is only found in the Catholic Church.

---

Your theory is not supported by history. There would not be a Mormon Church if Joseph Smith had not accepted the extra biblical revelation on alleged silver plates that was supposedly revealed to him by the “angel Moroni”. Adding to or changing the bible leads to cults. Sola Scriptura does not.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Your theory is not supported by history. There would not be a Mormon Church if Joseph Smith had not accepted the extra biblical revelation on alleged silver plates that was supposedly revealed to him by the “angel Moroni”. Adding to or changing the bible leads to cults. Sola Scriptura does not.

So how do you explain away the adding and subtracting of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Martin Luther that lead to the Protestant Tradition?

Sola Scriptura has influenced Sola Fide “faith alone” teaching.

Martin Luther subtracted from Sacred Scripture and added faith alone teachings.

 

[eazyduzit]

And here’s my point, whole denominations are not only ordaining gay ministers but are affirming gay marriage.

If what you say is true Pro-Gay Theology wouldn’t be the hot button controversial topic with multiple sides. Christians wouldn’t become affirming of gay marriage let alone allowing gay marriage. Ministries like The Gay Christian Network wouldn’t be affirmed by the many churches and whole denominations but rather every Church would be able to discern the herecy with pro-gay theology but instead a great multitude of whole Protestant main stream churches are now affirming pro-gay theology. If it were that simple to spot the herecy then why are so many churches affirming gay marriage now? And why are people not seeing the heresy? Many educated Christians present a very misleading theology. Their arguments are clever enough to turn whole denominations. I see the heresy but many with a higher education than me do not. It baffles me!!!

It should not be surprising. The liberal churches have always followed the world. They have a different view of most things. Why? It is because they have a different view of the Bible. To us the Bible is God’s word. For them it contains God’s word. Do you see that? It is all about how you handle the precious Word or deposit of faith. They have been drifting away for over 100 years.

 

[eazyduzit]

Oh I read that book! One of my fav books! What I learned in that book revolutionized my faith journey and relationship with Jesus! Oh but wait, Can a Catholic, does a Catholic, do Catholics have an intimate relationship with our Creator?

Pentecostals seem to think they’re the only ones lol

I think too there’s a wealth of Catholic Mystic writers and Priests that you probably have never heard about.

Have you heard about the discipline called Lecto Davina? Sorry I may have misspelled it. I’ll come back to explain it shortly.

Yes I have. It is essentially the way of prayer that Madame Jeanne Guyon described in her book called “A simple and Easy Method of Prayer”. It has been and still is very popular among Evangelicals. Also republished as “Experiencing God Through Prayer” Benny Hinn recommended her books on his show. He said this one book greatly changed his life.
I confess that I have not yet mastered it. I have a big book by Mark Virkler that goes into great detail. He explains that the greatest block to hearing God is western logical thinking.
Which also makes it all the more difficult for us left brain men. Every one seems to have a slightly different approach. Worship is just as important as prayer. Another important thing is to shut your mouth and listen. Jesus said, “he who hath an ear…” Now everyone has ears, but you have to build up a spiritual ear to hear. I yet have a lot to learn and to overcome in my weakness, but I know it is possible because Jesus said My sheep hear My voice.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

It should not be surprising. The liberal churches have always followed the world. They have a different view of most things. Why? It is because they have a different view of the Bible. To us the Bible is God’s word. For them it contains God’s word. Do you see that? It is all about how you handle the precious Word or deposit of faith. They have been drifting away for over 100 years.

I would argue that liberal Christians don’t have a lesser view of Sacred Scripture but rather their interpretation of Sacred Scripture is wrong. Some of these liberal Christians are perhaps as passionate as you and I are. However, they’re seriously mislead in their understanding of Sacred Scripture yet very certain they are right in their understanding. I see what you are saying I just don’t agree. It’s rather more complicated then that.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Yes I have. It is essentially the way of prayer that Madame Jeanne Guyon described in her book called “A simple and Easy Method of Prayer”. It has been and still is very popular among Evangelicals. Also republished as “Experiencing God Through Prayer” Benny Hinn recommended her books on his show. He said this one book greatly changed his life.
I confess that I have not yet mastered it. I have a big book by Mark Virkler that goes into great detail. He explains that the greatest block to hearing God is western logical thinking.
Which also makes it all the more difficult for us left brain men. Every one seems to have a slightly different approach. Worship is just as important as prayer. Another important thing is to shut your mouth and listen. Jesus said, “he who hath an ear…” Now everyone has ears, but you have to build up a spiritual ear to hear. I yet have a lot to learn and to overcome in my weakness, but I know it is possible because Jesus said My sheep hear My voice.

Did you this experiential prayer life was a discipline that was developed within the Catholic Church?

 

[eazyduzit]

So how do you explain away the adding and subtracting of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Martin Luther that lead to the Protestant Tradition?

Sola Scriptura has influenced Sola Fide “faith alone” teaching.

Martin Luther subtracted from Sacred Scripture and added faith alone teachings.

He only did that because someone insisted on adding works or merit to faith in regard to salvation.
Eph.2:9 “Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Luther did not create salvation by faith only.

Faith was already doing it alone.