What's YOUR beef?

[Della]

I just wanted to address a couple of your “beefs” to try to help you understand the Church’s teaching about them.

I’m Lutheran Missouri Synod (tragically you now have to define that), and married to a Catholic so my issues are probably a little less than most.

I have very few beefs with the Catholic Church on theology or liturgy as the Lutherans are really close to them in that manner.

I don’t really see a Biblical Basis for the Papacy as it has evolved over the last several hundred years. I have been studying the Bible a lot more lately and I do think the Christ had a special purpose in mind for Peter, and he is mentioned ALOT in the gospels. However, Christ also even tells Peter he has special purposes in mind for other disciples as well. Example John not as much Church building and evangelism, but he wrote a Gospel and Revelation. I realize a lot of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is based on tradition, and that’s Ok with me. I also have no problem with the Papal Infallibility claims as they only apply to when the pope speaks from the throne of St. Peter, which has officially happened only a few times in history and most of those times I agree with what he said.

I would just like to point out that no institution that is as old and as big as the Catholic Church is going to resemble 12 lay workers and one itinerant preacher from the 1st century. All the rites and liturgies of the Church developed from the OT, from the sacraments Christ established, and from the cultures the Church encountered. This tells me that it is a living organism that interacts with its environment, which it has done since it began and will do until Christ returns.

I have a little bit of an issue with the concept of Mary being sinless. If she was sinless then she didn’t need a savior and I think it cheapens the story a little. However If I get to heaven and they tell me she really was sinless…I’m Ok with that too. I do find thinking about and studying Mary a lot more meaningful now that I have kids of my own.

Mary’s Son was her Savior just as he is for all of us. In her case, though, she was saved before she could sin instead of after. It’s the difference between saving a person from jumping off a bridge and trying to rescue them after they’ve hit the water. Mary is the Second Eve–the new creation in Christ, who is the Mother of all the faithful. She, no longer Eve, is our racial mother since Christ redeemed all men. God started over again with Mary, which is why, like Eve, she was created free of sin, but unlike Eve Mary never had the desire to sin since she never had the stain of original sin, the wounding of her conscience, will and heart, the way Eve did when she fell from grace. Mary is what all of us can be in Christ. She’s our example and model as Christians.

For the rest of your post, you have a pretty good grasp of things Catholic. I too was pretty hard on my fellow Catholics even after I’d been received into the Church. I still see a lot of people coming and going without really knowing why they are at Mass or really understanding why the Church teaches what it does. I blame a lack of good catechesis over the last few decades for that. I think many of our bishops have focused on political issues rather than just plain teaching the people. I am always praying that will change as the “old guard” dies out and newer, more orthodox people take their places.

The Church has gone through many dry periods as well as great awakenings down through the centuries. I expect it will continue like that until the second coming. For, while the Church shares Christ’s divinity, and in that it is perfect, it is made up of very fallible human beings who makes huge mistakes and are prone to sin like we all are, and in that it is flawed. But, it’s teaching is still what Christ gave it and it still has the promise of infallibility and that of indestructibility so that no man, from inside or outside, can ever destroy it no matter how hard he try.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am not ‘jumping on anyone’. I am sincere in my desire to discuss. I cannot doubt anyone’s Christianity who claims to know Him and believe in Him and His sacrifice. I believe I have a slight understanding of what maybe our differences, from one to another. Those differences, in my opinion, are attributed to our own understandings, knowledge, intellect, counsel of the Holy Spirit, or strength of faith. We cannot tell how the Holy Spirit works in each individual. For me personally, I feel I have grown in my spiritual walk and it has brought me to the Catholic Church. Can I explain everything I feel was revealed to me through the Holy Spirit? Who can know the mind of God? I do my best, but it’s the Holy Spirit’s work in each of us that has us where we are in our faiths today.

Is there arrogance among Catholics? I have news for everyone, there is arrogance in ALL groups. It’s not something only associated on these forums. I have been to forums where I was specifically told, by the moderators and admins, ‘We don’t consider Catholics to be Christians’. There are wrongs in ALL humankind. The deceiver can work in many ways and seems he does. Each of us knows what Christ said about a house divided, yet it is human nature to dig in our heels, which can keep a divide between us. I am trying to work past that. Does this mean I’m going to agree with everyone on these forums? No, but I’m going to do my best not to ‘attack’ anyone’s faith in Christ. I will share my view of scriptures and will listen to other views. I will admit I will become inflamed when others tell me that I am wrong, without being able to prove where they get their authority/infallibility to be able to make such a statement. For me, scriptures point to an authoritative Church.

People doubt the men of the Catholic Church because of sins, tell us where the Church is that is without sinful men? Do we just walk away from all Churches? Do we doubt Christ for picking Judas? Do we doubt Christ for picking those who left Him and walked with Him no more? Christ chose sinful men and appointed/anointed them.

Send me a link to a discussion thread and I’ll join in the discussion.

 

[tsering]

I probably am more knowledgeable on the Catholic Church than 75% of my husband’s parish.

In a very gentle tone: This statement sounds a little uncharitable (if not prideful), as it does not seem grounded on provable truth. Please remember sister, “knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies.” I only know because I am often tempted with this thought as well.

Poor catechesis is sad, and true, there are some who don’t seem to know much about their Catholic faith, and that has hurt the Church. This thought should bring sorrow to our hearts and put us on our knees. :sad_yes:

I’m a nurse. I don’t say to others while working on my unit, “I probably am better off than most of these sick people.” My coordinator would probably say something like, “Oh yeah, Mr. Better Off, then get your butt in the that room, and get that person on the fast tract to better health!” :stretcher:

Peace

 

[Alix1912]

In a very gentle tone: This statement sounds a little uncharitable (if not prideful), as it does not seem grounded on provable truth. Please remember sister, “knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies.” I only know because I am often tempted with this thought as well.

Poor catechesis is sad, and true, there are some who don’t seem to know much about their Catholic faith, and that has hurt the Church. This thought should bring sorrow to our hearts and put us on our knees. :sad_yes:

I’m a nurse. I don’t say to others while working on my unit, “I probably am better off than most of these sick people.” My coordinator would probably say something like, “Oh yeah, Mr. Better Off, then get your butt in the that room, and get that person on the fast tract to better health!” :stretcher:

Peace

My assumption has come from the many mambers of his parish that have felt free to inform me of the failings of my church by quoting doctrine that is not supported by their own church. I apologize if it came of prideful…I just get frustrated that my husband and I have worked hard to understand each other’s faith yet many here on this forum and in his parish feel free to state doctrinal facts that well know apologists even writing from the pope have contradicted. That’s all. I guess I get really agrivated by people who state false facts or opinion based on false facts when arguing. Of course there are a lot of Protestants who do that about the Catholic Church as well.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

For a blog purpose, I am wondering what your top issue with the Catholic Church is?

Papal Infallibility, no ABC, no divorce, etc? I am looking for topics to write on.
Thanks in advance!!

P

As a Catholic, I would say my top “beef” is lukewarm Catholics who are too uneducated or too afraid to defend their Catholic faith. This is followed closely by scorn for nominal Catholics who use their position within the Church to cause confusion, scandal and division.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Robert

 

[hosemonkey]

As a Catholic, I would say my top “beef” is lukewarm Catholics who are too uneducated or too afraid to defend their Catholic faith. This is followed closely by scorn for nominal Catholics who use their position within the Church to cause confusion, scandal and division.

Hope this helps.

D’accord.

 

[mark_a]

For a blog purpose, I am wondering what your top issue with the Catholic Church is?

Papal Infallibility, no ABC, no divorce, etc?
Thanks in advance!!

P

No problems with official Church teachings. I’ve bought it lock, stock, and barrel.

I am looking for topics to write on.

How 'bout the lack of orthodoxy of some of the American Church’s bishops?

Or maybe how apologists should stick with Church teaching and stop pontificating about global warming!!

 

[tsering]

My assumption has come from the many mambers of his parish that have felt free to inform me of the failings of my church by quoting doctrine that is not supported by their own church. I apologize if it came of prideful…I just get frustrated that my husband and I have worked hard to understand each other’s faith yet many here on this forum and in his parish feel free to state doctrinal facts that well know apologists even writing from the pope have contradicted. That’s all. I guess I get really agrivated by people who state false facts or opinion based on false facts when arguing. Of course there are a lot of Protestants who do that about the Catholic Church as well.

It is frustrating though - I completely understand. That is why I am going to try to learn as much as I can about my faith, and it seems the more I learn, the more humble and appreciative I feel. I’m thankful for His grace. Despite the frustrations I see you and your husband have over this issue, I pray you would both grow in your love for one another and for the Lord.

Peace

 

[Alix1912]

No problems with official Church teachings. I’ve bought it lock, stock, and barrel.

How 'bout the lack of orthodoxy of some of the American Church’s bishops?

Or maybe how apologists should stick with Church teaching and stop pontificating about global warming!!

I agree.

 

[Reuben_J]

So I guess I have issues with the hypocrisy. But I think that can be a charge leveled at any single church or denomination. You have lots of people who go to Church on Sunday…but don’t live it during the week…actually we are all guilty of that at one point in our lives or another.

Just my 2 cents…or a buck I guess.

And we call them (or us rather) Sunday Christians. We go to Sunday mass to fulfill our Sunday obligation but outside of that we are very secular and not spiritual at all and thus living a secular and worldly life. Probably quite a lot (too) fall into this category. Are they hypocrites? Probably. On the the other hand we can learn a lot from the brothers and sisters in the church who are stronger in the faith, and these can be our examples/role models and our encouragement; and by the grace of God for us to be able to live the life of the Church and the Gospel.

The rest of your post is fair and well-balanced considering that you are a non-Catholic. I’ve learned not to be surprised at this as I notice that Lutherans, among other Christians, tend to be much closer to us perhaps much more than we think. Thank you.

God bless.

 

[Alix1912]

The rest of your post is fair and well-balanced considering that you are a non-Catholic. I’ve learned not to be surprised at this as I notice that Lutherans, among other Christians, tend to be much closer to us perhaps much more than we think. Thank you.

God bless.

My pastor is fond of saying that we are only one Martin Luther away. The doctrines are so similar and the teachings are very in line with each other. It’s a good thing too, since my husband and I have struggled with those little differences…I cannot imagine how people whose doctrine are further apart do it.

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s a good thing too, since my husband and I have struggled with those little differences…I cannot imagine how people whose doctrine are further apart do it.

It must be very difficult but by the grace of God, nothing is impossible. Bottom line is we are Christians and so in a marriage, Christian wife or Christian husband.

Catholicism allows for mixed marriage and though religious differences do pose difficulty for the married couple, the higher calling of being true to the marriage vow would surely bless the relationship as marriage is a gift and blessing from God.

May God bless both of you and be with you.

 

[Being_Brave]

Marian doctrine was the hardest, and last, for me to accept coming from being a Baptist. Because I needed everything to be directly from the Bible, I just didn’t get how her history and her marriage to Joseph could be explained with a story from anywhere but the Bible.

 

[YankeeRC]

As a Catholic, I would say my top “beef” is lukewarm Catholics who are too uneducated or too afraid to defend their Catholic faith. This is followed closely by scorn for nominal Catholics who use their position within the Church to cause confusion, scandal and division.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Robert

Well said!

I was going to say my beef is that my Church does not take a more hardliner stance by excommunicating those in who blatantly contradiction of Church teaching whether it be individuals words or writing, vote-craving politicians, renegade priests–the whole lot of them. But I feel Mother Church sees its role is to cradle us and it is in fact our fault ultimately if we excommunicate ourselves.

 

[balt_orioles54]

Suni Moon: My issue is not with the Church, but the Catholics themselves.
The hypocritical behavior, the ones who blatantly ignore what their catechism says, the ones who think all us protestants hate them, just because we disagree with them…
I think that would be a good topic to blog on: The way catholics treat eachother, and others. Spend awhile lurking in these forums, and you’ll pick up on some really odd, and disappointing, behavior. I think it would be an interesting thing to write on… But hey, that’s just me. Good luck on your blogging.

People are the same in every tribe, even among yours in the protestant world. You’ve got the sincere adherents, the one’s subscribing to “pascal’s wager” (see below, decision theory and the belief in God), and the guys who go to the church socials and pass out their business cards, networking.

Pascal’s wager: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal’s_Wager

 

[Contarini]

No problems with official Church teachings. I’ve bought it lock, stock, and barrel.

How 'bout the lack of orthodoxy of some of the American Church’s bishops?

Or maybe how apologists should stick with Church teaching and stop pontificating about global warming!!

Do you think there is any subject about which Catholicism does not have something to say?

If there is, is it really Catholic?

And yes, I agree that of course there is a difference between matters of dogma and other matters, but surely Catholic apologists, and maybe even bishops, have something to say about the latter as well. . . .

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Scriptures tell us to ‘obey our prelates’. No where does it say our prelates should cater to the layperson. Christ told the people to ‘do whatsoever they (those that sit of the chair of Moses) say to you’. He did not tell them to go start again if you don’t like what they say to you.

 

[rturner76]

For a blog purpose, I am wondering what your top issue with the Catholic Church is?
P

My biggest issue is that you are not allowed to take communion freely. I believe all are welcome at God’s table. I can understand no Eucharist but I wish there was even a more informal Communion and not the full Eucharist. I have been so thirsty for the blood of the lamb and asked for it only to be denied. That fact in itself is one on my big 5 or so reasons I haven’t converted yet.

God’s love to all.

 

[qui_est_ce]

My biggest issue is that you are not allowed to take communion freely. I believe all are welcome at God’s table. I can understand no Eucharist but I wish there was even a more informal Communion and not the full Eucharist. I have been so thirsty for the blood of the lamb and asked for it only to be denied. That fact in itself is one on my big 5 or so reasons I haven’t converted yet.

God’s love to all.

Hi rturner. Welcome to CAF.

All are welcome to the Eucharist, but not all are able to partake of the body and blood of the lamb, as they are outside of the Communion.

I would think your thirst for the blood of the lamb would be a strong motivation for conversion.

What is “informal Communion?”

 

[balt_orioles54]

Quote: Originally Posted by Alix1912:
It’s a good thing too, since my husband and I have struggled with those little differences…I cannot imagine how people whose doctrine are further apart do it.

Quote: RubenJ:
It must be very difficult but by the grace of God, nothing is impossible. Bottom line is we are Christians and so in a marriage, Christian wife or Christian husband. Catholicism allows for mixed marriage and though religious differences do pose difficulty for the married couple, the higher calling of being true to the marriage vow would surely bless the relationship as marriage is a gift and blessing from God. May God bless both of you and be with you.

Very true. My wife is non-denominational christian and I am catholic. We try to use the Protestant Catholic Alignment to deal as christians, as RubenJ suggests.

Protestant Catholic Alignment:

users.erols.com/veritas/wis7.htm