What's your interpretation of this New Testament Bible prophesy?

[MartinJordan]

Hi, my interpretation, would have to be the Church’s interpretation.

Because the Bible is given by the Church and for the sake of the fellowship of loving Our Lord Jesus Christ, and our God and the Holy Spirit and for the sake of the Our Father prayer that Jesus taught (not my Father, your Father) but Our Father, we the community of believers. It’s NOT going be just MY belief alone.

MJ

 

[campeador]

We don’t know that Eve remained a virgin til after she ate of the friut of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as your quote implies. If I’m not understanding you correctly, I’m sorry.

My friend, your argument is with St. Irenaeus, one of the early Church Fathers.

St. Irenaeus (wiki link):

He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of John the Evangelist.

St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, and Father of the Church:

He was born in Proconsular Asia, or at least in some province bordering thereon, in the first half of the second century; the exact date is controverted, between the years 115 and 125, according to some, or, according to others, between 130 and 142. It is certain that, while still very young, Irenaeus had seen and heard the holy Bishop Polycarp (d. 155) at Smyrna.

Saint Irenaeus, Bishop & Martyr:

Saint Irenaeus was a disciple of St. Polycarp of Smyrna. At a time when Gnostic sects threatened to undermine Chrisitianity by a perversion of Christian thought, he vigorously denounced all heresies and safeguarded unity of belief. He succeeded the martyred St. Pothinus as Bishop of Lyons.

I’ve found online the chief work of St. Irenaeus entitled Adversus haereses. It is a treatise in five books devoted to, according to its true title, the “Detection and Overthrow of the False Knowledge”. You can access it here: newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm

Here is the exact quote in context (Adversus haereses , book III, chapter 22, paragraph 4):

1. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word.” (Luke 1:38) But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” (Genesis 2:25) inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. (Matthew 19:30, Matthew 20:16) And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, “instead of fathers, children have been born unto you.” For the Lord, having been born “the First-begotten of the dead,” (Revelation 1:5) and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. (1 Corinthians 15:20-22) Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

 

[Dokimas]

My friend, your argument is with St. Irenaeus, one of the early Church Fathers.

St. Irenaeus (wiki link):

St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, and Father of the Church:

Saint Irenaeus, Bishop & Martyr:

I’ve found online the chief work of St. Irenaeus entitled Adversus haereses. It is a treatise in five books devoted to, according to its true title, the “Detection and Overthrow of the False Knowledge”. You can access it here: newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm

Here is the exact quote in context (Adversus haereses , book III, chapter 22, paragraph 4):

I figure if I’m going to pick someone to argue a point with, I may as well pick a heavy weight.

 

[campeador]

I figure if I’m going to pick someone to argue a point with, I may as well pick a heavy weight.

Of course. Why pick on the little guy?
hehehe

 

[rchapm77]

The Navarre Bible: Text and Commentaries:
Jesus came to bring salvation to all men, yet He will be a sign of contradiction because some people will obstinately reject Him—and for this reason He will be their ruin. But for those who accept Him with faith Jesus will be their salvation, freeing them from sin in this life and raising them up to eternal life. The words Simeon addresses to Mary announce that she will be intimately linked with her Son’s redemptive work. ]
This seems like a bit of a strecth to me to see in this particular passage. And the notion of Mary adding to or being directly linked to the redemptive work of her son is new to me. Does the Catholic Church teach that a persons salvation is partly dependant on Mary’s suffering?
campeador;6877106:

The sword indicates that Mary will have a share in her Son’s sufferings; hers will be an unspeakable pain which pierces her soul. Our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins, and it is those sins which forge the sword of Mary’s pain. Therefore, we have a duty to atone not only to God but also to His Mother, who is our Mother too.

 

[StashLazarus]

34 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall and for the resurrection of many in Israel and for a sign which shall be contradicted.

35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed.

The statement in verse 34 was addressed to Mary, so you assume that verse 35 is also addressed to Mary. I would say that Simeon turned his attention to Jesus with the statement in verse 35. The sword that pierced the soul of Jesus describes a spiritual attack against Christ by Satan while Christ was on the cross. That this attack took place is supported by numerous other passages. This attack by Satan revealed the thoughts of the devil and the other egocentric angels as they unloaded their hatred for God on Christ. The crucifixion of Christ leads to the resurrection of many (His children) in Israel (Heaven), and also (because of exposing many hearts) the crucifixion of Christ leads to the fall of many (Satan) in Israel (from Heaven).

 

[rchapm77]

The statement in verse 34 was addressed to Mary, so you assume that verse 35 is also addressed to Mary. I would say that Simeon turned his attention to Jesus with the statement in verse 35. The sword that pierced the soul of Jesus describes a spiritual attack against Christ by Satan while Christ was on the cross. That this attack took place is supported by numerous other passages. This attack by Satan revealed the thoughts of the devil and the other egocentric angels as they unloaded their hatred for God on Christ. The crucifixion of Christ leads to the resurrection of many (His children) in Israel (Heaven), and also (because of exposing many hearts) the crucifixion of Christ leads to the fall of many (Satan) in Israel (from Heaven).

Thats an interesting idea and I think the point is biblically sound however I don’t think there is anything in the passage that would suggest that Simeon is addressing Jesus in verse 35. The grammatical structure gives no reason to think Simeon changes who he is addressing. Anyway I think the point is sound I just don’t see the verses supporting that view.

 

[StashLazarus]

Thats an interesting idea and I think the point is biblically sound however I don’t think there is anything in the passage that would suggest that Simeon is addressing Jesus in verse 35. The grammatical structure gives no reason to think Simeon changes who he is addressing. Anyway I think the point is sound I just don’t see the verses supporting that view.

True, looking at this passage in Luke there is no reason to believe that Simeon has changed his attention to Christ, but there are other passages that suggest a spiritual attack on Christ while He was on the cross and there are also other passages that talk of Christ exposing hatred.

Psalm 64:1-5 Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy. Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity: Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words: That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not. They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Here we see an attack on someone who is perfect by those who think they can get away with it because they aren’t being watched. Who has ever been perfect? Christ, and no one else. We can’t do anything without being watched, this passage suggests a moment in history when God turns His face, but when did that ever happen? When Christ was on the cross.

Psalms 21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.

Christ in the Psalms was sometimes called the Right Hand (of God), and in this verse, it is Christ who exposes thoughts (hatred) of the enemies of God.

Since what Simeon said describes Christ…and since the passage does not rule out the possibilty…I would say that Simeon changed his attention to Christ.