What's your opinion on Orthodoxy?

[GaryTaylor]

So are you saying that you do not believe the Roman Pope should have the kinds of extraordinary powers that he may assert within the RCC understanding of ecclesiology, Gary? That’s…interesting. :ehh:

I believe it certainly developed over time, I believe there indeed was a position of honor. But to speak seperate of all the other Apostolic Church’s I disagree with.

 

[Trebor135]

My opinion of Orthodoxy (Orthodox Church) is that it is the, “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith”, which is why I’m in the process of converting.

Have you considered doing evangelization in the mostly secular Japan where you presently reside?

(Off-topic I know, but it puzzles me why there are so few Orthodox in the country when Russia has been a close Christian neighbour for a thousand years.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Have you considered doing evangelization in the mostly secular Japan where you presently reside?

(Off-topic I know, but it puzzles me why there are so few Orthodox in the country when Russia has been a close Christian neighbour for a thousand years.)

Japan has a strong nationalistic sense. They cultural identity evolved with the belief that the Emperor is a descendant of the Sun god. Also they closed themselves off from foreigners at different points in history.

 

[Trebor135]

Japan has a strong nationalistic sense. They cultural identity evolved with the belief that the Emperor is a descendant of the Sun god. Also they closed themselves off from foreigners at different points in history.

True. Once or twice during the second millennium, though, Japan had a very large population of Catholic converts–a community which, however, found itself decimated by state persecution when the tide turned. Plus, the country opened itself up to the outside world in the mid-nineteenth century, and the Russian Orthodox Church had a window of half a century to resume outreach before the Bolshevik Revolution. (I haven’t studied Japanese history at all in depth, so I welcome correction.)

 

[Trebor135]

Thanks, the Russo-Japanese War of 1905 completely slipped my mind.

Japan seems like one tough nut to crack in terms of evangelization. But the Presbyterians and Catholics have had a surprising degree of success on the Korean peninsula, which is just as ethno-culturally homogeneous and seemingly insular as Japan. The Christian population of South Korea stands at over twenty-five percent; may God protect his followers in North Korea, however many of them remain alive.

 

[ConstantineTG]

True. Once or twice during the second millennium, though, Japan had a very large population of Catholic converts–a community which, however, found itself decimated by state persecution when the tide turned. Plus, the country opened itself up to the outside world in the mid-nineteenth century, and the Russian Orthodox Church had a window of half a century to resume outreach before the Bolshevik Revolution. (I haven’t studied Japanese history at all in depth, so I welcome correction.)

The first and so far only (will be joined by a second soon) Filipino Catholic Saint was martyred in Japan during a mission there. Given that the emperor is, in their eyes a descendant of a diety, they don’t take too kindly to foreigners who oppose their devotion to the emperor.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Thanks, the Russo-Japanese War of 1905 completely slipped my mind.

Japan seems like one tough nut to crack in terms of evangelization. But the Presbyterians and Catholics have had a surprising degree of success on the Korean peninsula, which is just as ethno-culturally homogeneous and seemingly insular as Japan. The Christian population of South Korea stands at over twenty-five percent; may God protect his followers in North Korea, however many of them remain alive.

One person @ a time. Our family hosts Japanese exchange students each year & when we take them to Church it’s their first exposure to Christianity. I send them home with an Icon, a Bible and a prayer book and let the Holy Spirit take it from there.

Many of my clients are Koreans and most are either Catholic or Orthodox Christians, but there are a few Presbyterians and Buddhists.

P.S. I remember watching someone try to sell Life Insurance to one of our members who is a Buddhist Korean and the sole provider for his wife & child and his response was “What do I care? I’m dead!” But your wife and daughter would still need help to pay the mortgage & other bills and our member repeated himself, “It doesn’t matter. What do I care? I’m dead! It doesn’t matter.”

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

‘Collegially’ is an interesting assertion, especially when we see RC Traditionalists ranting about the ‘errors of collegiality’. Yet this is precisely the defense offered for the legitimacy of this practice!

Well, I don’t disagree with you about the irony, as I’m not a traditionalist. My perception is that, as a whole, as a movement, what is meant today by “traditionalist Catholicism” insists on an adherence more to Tridentine Catholicism than to more ancient and patristic norms for our faith.

The Pope listens to whomever he wants to listen to over a course of days, months or years and decides in his own time and on his own whether he has heard from enough people and if he wants to declare a dogma. People get it, they know how the system works and they know how to work it. Petitions for new dogmas are a regular occurance and some people think that’s normal.

I don’t think that’s normal or healthy.

That is not the same as bishops exposing the idea to vigourous free debate and serious inquiry in an open council, which is what the Seven Great Councils of the church were…

Vigorous free debate and serious inquiry can happen in many ways. They have happened throughout the history of the Church, and living arguments by living contemporary bishops is not the only source of the results of “vigorous free debate and serious inquiry.” The pope, as I’m sure you know, does indeed act within the bounds of Sacred Tradition when he exercises the infallibility of the Church.

As someone from the Orthodox side here said that the Pope of Rome is only a normal bishop, I don’t agree to that, but find it hard to agree to an infallible Pope either.

I know you probably already know this, but do remember that the pope is not infallible. Rather, he can, under a certain very specific set of circumstances, personally exercise the infallibility that God can grant to the Church.

The point those folks are trying to make (but perhaps phrase somewhat poorly) is that no matter what prerogatives the bishop of Rome may or may not have had, he was still a bishop and not some separate rank of ordained minister all-together.

You know the Catholic Church agrees with that. He is “a bishop and not some separate rank of ordained minister altogether.”

In other words, when we are told that being out of communion with the bishop of Rome is a definitive sign of being outside of the Church, we scratch our heads, because it seems as if he has become (to Catholics) a bishop of bishops, as if being ordained pope were its own class of ordination above episcopal ordination or something.

Nah, to say that communion with the Church of Rome is necessary to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is not to presuppose that being pope entails a higher class of ordination. The latter does not require nor presuppose the former.

And remember, Cavaradossi: the pope is not “ordained.” He is elected.

The pope is called to be the servant of all Catholics, not just Catholics who live in the Diocese of Rome, or even the Latin Church. He has whatever practical authority he needs to carry out his mission of service effectively.

 

[Nine_Two]

True. Once or twice during the second millennium, though, Japan had a very large population of Catholic converts–a community which, however, found itself decimated by state persecution when the tide turned. Plus, the country opened itself up to the outside world in the mid-nineteenth century, and the Russian Orthodox Church had a window of half a century to resume outreach before the Bolshevik Revolution. (I haven’t studied Japanese history at all in depth, so I welcome correction.)

Half of that window had Russia and Japan at odds, and Japan persecuted Orthodox Christians quite heavily. Briefly Orthodox Christianity was the most successful in Japan.

 

[Nine_Two]

The first and so far only (will be joined by a second soon) Filipino Catholic Saint was martyred in Japan during a mission there. Given that the emperor is, in their eyes a descendant of a diety, they don’t take too kindly to foreigners who oppose their devotion to the emperor.

Modern Japanese are quite irreligious. In fact this is the real problem, they look strangely on people who are religious.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Collegiality can be something of a “clarification” the Catholic Church can give about Pastor Aeternus for it to become acceptable to the Orthodox. However, how do we get around “universal and ordinary jurisdiction”? That will never be acceptable to the Orthodox.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Collegiality can be something of a “clarification” the Catholic Church can give about Pastor Aeternus for it to become acceptable to the Orthodox. However, how do we get around “universal and ordinary jurisdiction”? That will never be acceptable to the Orthodox.

We could start by acknowledging that the concept of “jurisdiction” is an exclusively western one, relying on western political concepts and terminology.

Of course, we can’t surrender the pope’s authority, which is and must be present in a practical and universal way, to act for the good of the unity of the Church and the preservation of the faith. But there’s absolutely no reason why the canons of a reunited Orthodox Catholic Church would need to ascribe “universal jurisdiction” to the pope of Rome.

In other words, we could exile the word “jurisdiction” itself and find a different expression for the essence of the papal dogmas, one that nonetheless still does justice to the pope’s mission of service to all his brother bishops, and to the entirety of the Catholic Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Modern Japanese are quite irreligious. In fact this is the real problem, they look strangely on people who are religious.

Oh we are talking about the Japanese back in the day.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Petitions for new dogmas are a regular occurance and some people think that’s normal.

This is a regular occurrence and it is normal; otherwise, why would our priests promote the signature of such petitions during Mass? After Mass, I’ve signed one at the request of the priest & certain laity to have the Blessed Pope John Paul II declare as Dogma that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces. Millions signed it, but he never did make the declaration? I was told that BPJPII spoke about his belief in the undeclared Dogma, but that he thought it may hurt more than help the ecumenism in progress with Protestants & that it will be declared later after more non-Catholics come under the Pope. The wisdom of the Holy Spirit is above my understanding because my lowly thoughts make me wonder why our Church would limit our Dogmas by not including the Mediatrix because some outside of our Faith don’t agree?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

This is a regular occurrence and it is normal; otherwise, why would our priests promote the signature of such petitions during Mass?

Meh, I’m with Hesychios on this one. I don’t think some of our fellow Catholics’ preoccupation with getting new dogmas declared is a good thing.

After Mass, I’ve signed one at the request of the priest & certain laity to have the Blessed Pope John Paul II declare as Dogma that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces. Millions signed it, but he never did make the declaration?

And I think Blessed John Paul II was wise and right not to do so. Mediatrix of All Graces is a confusing and deeply misleading title, at least in English. And honestly, what it actually means - that all graces come to us through her, because it is she who in cooperating with God gave us Jesus - seems to me to already be implicitly present in Catholic teaching anyway. So why dogmatize it by adding a highly misleading title to the Blessed Mother?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Meh, I’m with Hesychios on this one. I don’t think some of our fellow Catholics’ preoccupation with getting new dogmas declared is a good thing.

If it’s not a good thing, why does our Church encourage the practice & promote the signing of the petitions?

 

[ConstantineTG]

If it’s not a good thing, why does our Church encourage the practice & promote the signing of the petitions?

I can give you a long list of things the Catholic Church have done which are not good ideas.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

If it’s not a good thing, why does our Church encourage the practice & promote the signing of the petitions?

What do you mean? In what ways does “our Church” encourage the practice and promote the signing of the petitions?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

What do you mean? In what ways does “our Church” encourage the practice and promote the signing of the petitions?

By the priests telling us during Mass about the petitions to sign after Mass. And as far as I know, the Pope has never asked or ordered the bishops, priests or laity to “stop it”, but the Pope accepts the petitions confirming it’s a normal and acceptible practice.

If you don’t agree with it, get a petition going & send it to him asking him to put a stop to the practice - jk jk I just couldn’t resist joking with you. I hope this made you laugh, at least a little, if not alot

 

[Cavaradossi]

Nah, to say that communion with the Church of Rome is necessary to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is not to presuppose that being pope entails a higher class of ordination. The latter does not require nor presuppose the former.

That is problematic. So then the bishop of Rome is to other bishops what the bishop is to his presbyters, i.e., a bishop of bishops. Just as a presbyter who defies his bishop is considered to have gone rogue, so too bishops out of communion with the bishop of Rome are considered to have gone rogue. This, in effect, means that bishops in and of themselves have no power to manifest the Catholic Church in one place and in one eucharist outside of their communion with the bishop of Rome, as a bishop outside of communion with Rome can confect a valid eucharist, but is somehow separated from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.