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acacia12
Guest
I felt the same and feel the same too.
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onemangang
Guest
I have a few friends out in L.A that attend N.A and A.A meetings, every so often I will get invited to their Sober anniversary (birthday). As far as I have witnessed out here in Los. Angeles, they profess to be non-judgmental, but in fact very judgmental, at least the ones that are committed members. Some remind me of the T.U.L.I.P folks, whereas** if you got sober without meetings, or you leave the Organization, then you" never really had a problem like they did"** Almost like the Christian that falls into sin in a Calvinist community āthey must have never really have been savedā I have met many of people in N.A and A.A out here in L.A (around 30 or so ) being that I have a few friends that attend, and I have not met one Trinitarian Christian, they are all Gnostic, Bhuddist, or follow Native American Spirituality! Sadly enough out in L.A some meetings are more like a social networking hangout for hipsters, who can get together and share conspiracy theory stories. I have even given the Los Angeles N.A and A.A Gnostic a Label (yes itās terrible and judgmental I know)** Gnosticism: Christianity for conspiracy theorist!** I did have a friend tell me that the steps are designed to encounter and surrender to God, the only problem is that āGodā seems to be subject to the individuals whims, rather than the God who has revealed Himself through the person of Jesus Christ. The same person who told me this, follows Native American Spirituality. I am glad to hear that there are some Catholics in A.A and the N.A programs, I was beginning to think that didnāt exist, also I believe I heard Fr. Mitch Pacwa speak highly of the organizations principles, maybe somebody else could verify that!
I do believe God will encounter and call people through Love regardless, but I do find it disturbing how in A.A or N.A you can profess belief in anything, as long as it is not judgmental like Orthodox Christianity. Sorry Christianity is judgmental, it says all other religions are false ( privations of truth if you will) and that God has revealed Himself through the person of Jesus Christ, or more specifically Ephesians 3:4 As you reading, may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,
5 Which in other generations was not known to the sons of men, as it is now** revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit:**
6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and co-partners of his promise in Christ Jesus,** by the gospel:
7 Of which I am made a minister**, according to the gift of the grace of God, which is given to me according to the operation of his power:
8 To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things:
10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
11 According to the eternal purpose,** which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord**:
I do believe God will encounter and call people through Love regardless, but I do find it disturbing how in A.A or N.A you can profess belief in anything, as long as it is not judgmental like Orthodox Christianity. Sorry Christianity is judgmental, it says all other religions are false ( privations of truth if you will) and that God has revealed Himself through the person of Jesus Christ, or more specifically Ephesians 3:4 As you reading, may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,
5 Which in other generations was not known to the sons of men, as it is now** revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit:**
6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and co-partners of his promise in Christ Jesus,** by the gospel:
7 Of which I am made a minister**, according to the gift of the grace of God, which is given to me according to the operation of his power:
8 To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things:
10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
11 According to the eternal purpose,** which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord**:
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acacia12
Guest
I have heard of people like this in the programme. Their here too in the UK. But remember it is a recovery programme first and foremost. I like others chose to return back to the Catholic Church in part due to joining AA and NA. Admittedly it would be benefitial if here in the UK atleast if they had Catholic recovery programmes available similar to AA and NA. My Priest mentioned AA and NA to me. God Bless
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
If anyone in a 12 step group starts bashing the Catholic Church, āRecovering Catholic,ā etc. then you must stop the meeting and remind them of the opening. We leave our religious beliefs at the doorstep when we come into the rooms of AA, NA and Al-Anon. I have had to do this twice now, and each time, I remind long-time members who toss off those phrases that these rooms include newcomers who might be Catholics. How does that newcomer feel, upon hearing appreciative laughter when someone says, āIām a recovering Catholic!ā I can tell you that as a very JOYOUS Catholic, I am highly insulted at the implication that my faith needs recovering from! No, this is a very serious violation of 12 step principles and must be stopped EVERY TIME it happens. Particular religious philosophies have no part in a 12 step meeting. Invariably, if one person states anything about the Church, two or three people join in and comment somehow in their own shares.
As a Catholic Christian, of course I do not believe that everyone has the right to ācreate their own Higher Power.ā There is ONE God in 3 persons, and it is only our own narrowness of vision that keeps us from understanding that God. So when someone says, āMy Higher Power whom I CHOOSE to call God,ā I think, āWell that IS GOD!ā LOL But that person canāt always acknowledge God because of fear or past experiences. So, one step at a timeā¦
The thing is, I want everyone who can recover using 12 steps, to have that opportunity, and if the meetings were to be outwardly religious, it would exclude someone, or many someones. So I just remind myself that everyone comes to God in his or her own way and time. If I have private conversations with other members, I ācome outā as a Catholic (they usually know it because Iām the one who stops the Catholic-bashing in meetings). Also one of my meetings is on Wednesday so on Ash Wednesday I sometimes have ashes on my forehead.
Itās a little tricky, the spiritual and not religious aspect of 12 step groups. But I still get a lot out of them. Soā¦
As a Catholic Christian, of course I do not believe that everyone has the right to ācreate their own Higher Power.ā There is ONE God in 3 persons, and it is only our own narrowness of vision that keeps us from understanding that God. So when someone says, āMy Higher Power whom I CHOOSE to call God,ā I think, āWell that IS GOD!ā LOL But that person canāt always acknowledge God because of fear or past experiences. So, one step at a timeā¦
The thing is, I want everyone who can recover using 12 steps, to have that opportunity, and if the meetings were to be outwardly religious, it would exclude someone, or many someones. So I just remind myself that everyone comes to God in his or her own way and time. If I have private conversations with other members, I ācome outā as a Catholic (they usually know it because Iām the one who stops the Catholic-bashing in meetings). Also one of my meetings is on Wednesday so on Ash Wednesday I sometimes have ashes on my forehead.
Itās a little tricky, the spiritual and not religious aspect of 12 step groups. But I still get a lot out of them. Soā¦
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tarboy
Guest
So much of AA or NA really depends on the regular meetings you attend.
If you are with a good group of christians, and you have a good sponsor, your faith can blossom. Doing the step work with prayer and a contrite spirit can be powerful driver of positive change.
Conversley, Iāve seen some groups that are more social club, where the overall feel is just much more shallow. Reminds me of the bar scene, where the guys are more vultures targeting the new āmeatā that havenāt figured things out yet.
Not much spirituality in some meetings.
If you are with a good group of christians, and you have a good sponsor, your faith can blossom. Doing the step work with prayer and a contrite spirit can be powerful driver of positive change.
Conversley, Iāve seen some groups that are more social club, where the overall feel is just much more shallow. Reminds me of the bar scene, where the guys are more vultures targeting the new āmeatā that havenāt figured things out yet.
Not much spirituality in some meetings.
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acacia12
Guest
Tarboy, I have heard of this too. Not good.
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acacia12
Guest
Thank you. Youāve given me food for thoughtIf anyone in a 12 step group starts bashing the Catholic Church, āRecovering Catholic,ā etc. then you must stop the meeting and remind them of the opening. We leave our religious beliefs at the doorstep when we come into the rooms of AA, NA and Al-Anon. I have had to do this twice now, and each time, I remind long-time members who toss off those phrases that these rooms include newcomers who might be Catholics. How does that newcomer feel, upon hearing appreciative laughter when someone says, āIām a recovering Catholic!ā I can tell you that as a very JOYOUS Catholic, I am highly insulted at the implication that my faith needs recovering from! No, this is a very serious violation of 12 step principles and must be stopped EVERY TIME it happens. Particular religious philosophies have no part in a 12 step meeting. Invariably, if one person states anything about the Church, two or three people join in and comment somehow in their own shares.
As a Catholic Christian, of course I do not believe that everyone has the right to ācreate their own Higher Power.ā There is ONE God in 3 persons, and it is only our own narrowness of vision that keeps us from understanding that God. So when someone says, āMy Higher Power whom I CHOOSE to call God,ā I think, āWell that IS GOD!ā LOL But that person canāt always acknowledge God because of fear or past experiences. So, one step at a timeā¦
The thing is, I want everyone who can recover using 12 steps, to have that opportunity, and if the meetings were to be outwardly religious, it would exclude someone, or many someones. So I just remind myself that everyone comes to God in his or her own way and time. If I have private conversations with other members, I ācome outā as a Catholic (they usually know it because Iām the one who stops the Catholic-bashing in meetings). Also one of my meetings is on Wednesday so on Ash Wednesday I sometimes have ashes on my forehead.
Itās a little tricky, the spiritual and not religious aspect of 12 step groups. But I still get a lot out of them. Soā¦
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odile53
Guest
Actually, there is an alcoholism recovery society for Roman Catholics. It is called the Calix society. Their focus is on deepening oneās spirituality by applying Catholic teachings to the Eleventh Step. They are insistent that their members have already established sobriety and recovery, so it is not the same thing as AA, or AlAnon, are. Iāve been to a couple of their local meetings, and we basically studied the readings from that dayās Liturgy of the Hours. Since the meeting place is located at some distance from me, and cuts into weekend time that I spend with my husband (he is on the road during the week,) I decided to wait until circumstances change before getting more involved. They do accept nonalcoholic family members of alcoholics as well as alcoholics themselves. There is not much concerning the process of early recovery from alcoholism, and I didnāt figure out whether they also concerned themselves with abusers of substances other than alcohol.
Still, those two meetings did get me interested enough in the Liturgy of the Hours, so much so that I started praying them. So I suppose itās all good.
You can google them if you like.
It might be a good adjunct for those Catholic alcoholics in recovery who do get something out of AA meetings but would like someplace to go where the word āCatholicā isnāt met with guffaws and eye-rolling.
The AlAnon meetings around here do tend to keep a clamp on the mention of specific religious practices, but you hear plenty of New Age-y stuff, as well as some quasi native American spirituality (I call it āquasiā because Iām native, and I donāt know any other natives who believe half the stuff that these folks do, and sometimes it annoys me when I hear about such things from nonnatives who are convinced that they are following ancient aboriginal ways!) I do with those things what I was taught to do with everything I heard at meetings early on: āTake what you like and leave the rest.ā As long as you get the First Step down, the Twelve Step programs do lend themselves somewhat to cafeteria-style selectivity, and thatās fine, as long as you make sure that you get the meat and potatoes!
The program of recovery isnāt religion, and religion isnāt the program of recovery. Theyāre two separate entities. But I doubt one could be a good Catholic while dead drunk or so enmeshed in the vagaries of living with an active alcoholic, and I doubt oneās sobriety or recovery would be serene and satisfying without God, and active worship in a community of like minded people, whichever church that turns out to be. Letās not forget, the Twelve Step programs are populated by, and adaptable for, people of any religious tradition, or none at all.
As usual, just my two cents on the matter.
Still, those two meetings did get me interested enough in the Liturgy of the Hours, so much so that I started praying them. So I suppose itās all good.
You can google them if you like.
It might be a good adjunct for those Catholic alcoholics in recovery who do get something out of AA meetings but would like someplace to go where the word āCatholicā isnāt met with guffaws and eye-rolling.
The AlAnon meetings around here do tend to keep a clamp on the mention of specific religious practices, but you hear plenty of New Age-y stuff, as well as some quasi native American spirituality (I call it āquasiā because Iām native, and I donāt know any other natives who believe half the stuff that these folks do, and sometimes it annoys me when I hear about such things from nonnatives who are convinced that they are following ancient aboriginal ways!) I do with those things what I was taught to do with everything I heard at meetings early on: āTake what you like and leave the rest.ā As long as you get the First Step down, the Twelve Step programs do lend themselves somewhat to cafeteria-style selectivity, and thatās fine, as long as you make sure that you get the meat and potatoes!
The program of recovery isnāt religion, and religion isnāt the program of recovery. Theyāre two separate entities. But I doubt one could be a good Catholic while dead drunk or so enmeshed in the vagaries of living with an active alcoholic, and I doubt oneās sobriety or recovery would be serene and satisfying without God, and active worship in a community of like minded people, whichever church that turns out to be. Letās not forget, the Twelve Step programs are populated by, and adaptable for, people of any religious tradition, or none at all.
As usual, just my two cents on the matter.
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benjohnson
Guest
Isnāt Narrcanon run by the Scientologists and based on Scientology? Personally, Iād be leery of letting a loved one join.
From Wikipedia:
*āIts affiliation with the Church of Scientology has made Narconon itself a focus of controversy.[12] The organization has never denied that many of its administrators are committed Scientologists or that its methods are based on the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard.ā
āNarconon was established February 19, 1966 as a drug-rehabilitation program based on āThe Fundamentals of Thoughtā by L. Ron Hubbard and delivered to drug abusers in the Arizona State Prisons. The name āNarcononā originally referred not to an organization but to the program.
Narcononās creator was William C. Benitez, a former inmate at Arizona State Prison who had served time for narcotics offenses.[5] His work was supported by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and in 1972 Hubbard sponsored the incorporation of Narconon as an organization.[6] It was co-founded by Benitez and two Scientologists, Henning Heldt and Arthur Maren.ā*
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narconon
From Wikipedia:
*āIts affiliation with the Church of Scientology has made Narconon itself a focus of controversy.[12] The organization has never denied that many of its administrators are committed Scientologists or that its methods are based on the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard.ā
āNarconon was established February 19, 1966 as a drug-rehabilitation program based on āThe Fundamentals of Thoughtā by L. Ron Hubbard and delivered to drug abusers in the Arizona State Prisons. The name āNarcononā originally referred not to an organization but to the program.
Narcononās creator was William C. Benitez, a former inmate at Arizona State Prison who had served time for narcotics offenses.[5] His work was supported by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and in 1972 Hubbard sponsored the incorporation of Narconon as an organization.[6] It was co-founded by Benitez and two Scientologists, Henning Heldt and Arthur Maren.ā*
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narconon
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acacia12
Guest
Ben, Iāve been through all the post and no-one mentions Narconon. NA stands for Narcotics Anonymous
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benjohnson
Guest
Thank you for the quick correction!Ben, Iāve been through all the post and no-one mentions Narconon. NA stands for Narcotics Anonymous
You are indeed right - Narconon is the Scientology group.
Narcotics Anonymous and the related Nar-Anon are defiantly not.
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acacia12
Guest
Lol! youāre welcome. I was a bit worried there. Thought Iād missed a post! God bless
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
I had a friend (who introduced me to pot) who ended up joining Narconon. He completely changed from being a friend, to someone who betrayed me in the worst possible way. I had no idea there was a connection, but he was very cult-like in his behavior at that time. Very interesting to read this.
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acacia12
Guest
Whoa! that must be a shock to have just learned that connection. God Bless
I had a friend (who introduced me to pot) who ended up joining Narconon. He completely changed from being a friend, to someone who betrayed me in the worst possible way. I had no idea there was a connection, but he was very cult-like in his behavior at that time. Very interesting to read this.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Yeah, but it makes more sense now. He stabbed me in the back and weād been friends since 3rd grade. We even toyed with āgoing steadyā for a while (as it turns out, heās gay). Another friend of mine whose mother was schizophrenic was staying with me for a few days until her mom settled down again - he called her mom and told her where she was, and the cops came and got her, like she was a runaway. He was the only one who knew that she was staying with me. He denied it but it could only have been him. Heād been trying to get me to join Narconon along with him and I had blown it off, I know he was taking revenge.Whoa! that must be a shock to have just learned that connection. God Bless
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acacia12
Guest
I must admit, I havent heard of Narconon, but have heard of Scientology. Face it, who hasānt? Tom Criuse and all that. Anything to do with Scientology is a definite miss. I think I will stick with the fellowships of AA and NA thank you very much. And I certainly wonāt be leaving The One True Catholic Church. I watched a documentary on Scientology and vindictiveness and revenge seemed to be a theme. God Bless.
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