When a Catholic makes the personal application to read the Scriptures

[chris_molter]

In most of them, they ended up leaving the Catholic church.

I’d love to know how this conclusion was formed, statistically speaking…

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by SIA
In most of them, they ended up leaving the Catholic church.

I sort of addressed that in Post #29.

In point of fact, the “Most” to which He refers is only “Most” of the “few” wh questioned their faith.

For Most who Read the Bible, it did not cause them to Question their faith. A Few did and not ALL of those who questioned left the faith.

So
100 people “Apply themselves to reading Scripture”
A few Question their faith. What is “A few” of 100?
Shall we be generous and say 20? After all, a “few” is certainly not “many”
Now “most of them” left the Church. Most of 20 might be 15?

So of 100 Catholics who Apply themselves to reading Scripture", perhaps 15 lose their Catholic Faith.

This is what the OP actually is saying.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Or folks around here got tired of him.
If you look up his last posts before he was banned, is there anything offensive?

I was simply offering a possibility.
Only the moderators would be able to tell us for sure.

Peace
James

 

[Walt_Oliver]

Quote from the banned topics list:

Debating moderator action, including discussing, disputing, or speculating as to why a member’s posting privileges were restricted, why posted messages were edited or deleted, or why threads were closed or removed from public fora

 

[JRKH]

The church is a who not a what.
Eklessia means Gods assembly or the Congregation of God which is people not an institution.

I’ve heard this so many times and it just doesn’t make sense. Granted there cannot be a Church without the community. However that does not mean that this community does not have a structure, Hierarchy and Authority.
The USA is a community, an assembly, a congregation of persons and yet we require and utilize a governmental Structure. One does not preclude the other. In fact any community of any size NEEDS structure.

I put this together a while ago:

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Some of our Protestant brothers will want to tell us that the “Church” not an “institution” but the entire body of believers. If this were so then “Taking it to the Church” would be completed in step two where “Two or three witnesses” are called upon and no third step would be required. But Christ did establish a third step, telling His disciples to submit such obstinate disputes to “The Church’ for resolution and that they must accept The Church’s judgment as final.
So how does Christ define His Church?

Matthew 16: 18-19
18 "I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build My church (Singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Ponder on this and ask yourself honestly whether Jesus intended His Church to be a loosely organized group of believers, built around a book of scripture or if He intended His Church to be United, Authoritative, and Structured.

Are we to build a Kingdom of God on Earth or an Anarchy of God on Earth?

Prayerfully Consider…

Peace
James

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I just realized how harmful it is to say “most of ______ I know become _____ after studying the Bible.” Why does someone say that? It’s not to encourage others to read the Bible and find truer Christianity. It’s to cause others to doubt their interpretation of the Bible, which makes an opening for one’s own interpretation of the Bible. Teaching someone one’s own interpretation is different than simply having them study the Bible. And if one successfully converts another, he will add them to the list of people who “studied the Bible” when something different happened!

I have done this too many times myself. I am sorry.

 

[JRKH]

I just realized how harmful it is to say “most of ______ I know become _____ after studying the Bible.” Why does someone say that? It’s not to encourage others to read the Bible and find truer Christianity. It’s to cause others to doubt their interpretation of the Bible, which makes an opening for one’s own interpretation of the Bible. Teaching someone one’s own interpretation is different than simply having them study the Bible. And if one successfully converts another, he will add them to the list of people who “studied the Bible” when something different happened!

I have done this too many times myself. I am sorry.

Very well said.

And we must remember that Jesus cautioned his followers about being a teacher, for they are called to stricter account.

Peace
James

 

[Hisalone]

I’ve heard this so many times and it just doesn’t make sense. Granted there cannot be a Church without the community. However that does not mean that this community does not have a structure, Hierarchy and Authority.
The USA is a community, an assembly, a congregation of persons and yet we require and utilize a governmental Structure. One does not preclude the other. In fact any community of any size NEEDS structure.

I put this together a while ago:

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Some of our Protestant brothers will want to tell us that the “Church” not an “institution” but the entire body of believers. If this were so then “Taking it to the Church” would be completed in step two where “Two or three witnesses” are called upon and no third step would be required. But Christ did establish a third step, telling His disciples to submit such obstinate disputes to “The Church’ for resolution and that they must accept The Church’s judgment as final.
So how does Christ define His Church?

Matthew 16: 18-19
18 "I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build My church (Singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Ponder on this and ask yourself honestly whether Jesus intended His Church to be a loosely organized group of believers, built around a book of scripture or if He intended His Church to be United, Authoritative, and Structured.

Are we to build a Kingdom of God on Earth or an Anarchy of God on Earth?

Prayerfully Consider…

Peace
James

Look at the OT model of the Isrealites. God desired that they would be unlike all the nations surrounding them. The other nations had kings Isreal had judges. It was Gods desire that He be the king of Isreal and that the judges administer the government of the people.
Isreal however wanted to be like the other nations and wanted a king, so God gave them a corrupt king Saul.
God established His congregation on the foundation of Christ. The apostles were to be like the judges. And Christ be the head of the Congregation or Church however men established a kingdom just like any other earthly kingdom and made the pope like a king. They even disobeyed Jesus own commands not to lord over His people like the gentiles do.
The eklessia is the entire assembly of God not the man made institution you claim.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Look at the OT model of the Isrealites. God desired that they would be unlike all the nations surrounding them. The other nations had kings Isreal had judges. It was Gods desire that He be the king of Isreal and that the judges administer the government of the people.
Isreal however wanted to be like the other nations and wanted a king, so God gave them a corrupt king Saul.
God established His congregation on the foundation of Christ. The apostles were to be like the judges. And Christ be the head of the Congregation or Church however men established a kingdom just like any other earthly kingdom and made the pope like a king. They even disobeyed Jesus own commands not to lord over His people like the gentiles do.
The eklessia is the entire assembly of God not the man made institution you claim.

no where in the Bible says for you to pick up the Bible and be saved. does it?

the pope is not the king Jesus is. the pope is the prime minister of His Kingdom. you began with the history of Israel kingdom then you jumped over and distorted the rest.

the only man made institutions here are those separated from the Ordained Church and are left to feed for themselves.

you need to go to Bible study at the CC for you to understand Sacred Scriptures.

at least give yourself a chance. do not remain ignorant.

i will say this you are being worse than the pagans at least they had no Scriptures but you have it and use it to persecute the Church of Jesus.

:byzsoc:

 

[Hisalone]

no where in the Bible says for you to pick up the Bible and be saved. does it?

the pope is not the king Jesus is. the pope is the prime minister of His Kingdom. you began with the history of Israel kingdom then you jumped over and distorted the rest.

the only man made institutions here are those separated from the Ordained Church and are left to feed for themselves.

you need to go to Bible study at the CC for you to understand Sacred Scriptures.

at least give yourself a chance. do not remain ignorant.

i will say this you are being worse than the pagans at least they had no Scriptures but you have it and use it to persecute the Church of Jesus.

:byzsoc:

The oracles of God were given to us so that we may know God to believe in Him and His ways and to follow Him. It is through His word that God chose to reveal Himself to most of mankind.
The pope has historically carried himself as king, do not fool yourself. Look at his outfit, one of a king -YES. look at his titles --one of a king YES.
Did he not crown princes and raised and destroyed earthly kingdoms.
Stop burrying your head in the sand.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The oracles of God were given to us so that we may know God to believe in Him and His ways and to follow Him. It is through His word that God chose to reveal Himself to most of mankind.
The pope has historically carried himself as king, do not fool yourself. Look at his outfit, one of a king -YES. look at his titles --one of a king YES.
Did he not crown princes and raised and destroyed earthly kingdoms.
Stop burrying your head in the sand.

given by whom? as far as i know as that the Bible was stolen from the CC.
it was not given it was taken. dont kitty yourself with this nonsense.

stop using the Bible to persecute Jesus Church.
obviously you dont understand it anyway. give it back to where it truly belongs, the Church.

if you truly want to have a civilized conversation stop insulting the Church.

:byzsoc:

 

[MDK]

I have known many Catholics who have at one point or another made the decision to truly apply themselves to reading the Holy Scriptures. In a few of them, it caused them to question their faith and to actively pursue answers from their parish priest or other clergy. In most of them, they ended up leaving the Catholic church. If the inspired Word of God when studied and meditated upon ultimately casues one to leave the church that they are attending, who is anyone to tell them that they are wrong for doing so. Jesus tells us that the truth will set us free.

One would have to ask why this is. Is it that they interpret correctly on their own… even in spite of what Peter wrote about the ignorant and unstable wresting Scriptures to their own destruction?

There are many who were outside the Church, and the Bible led them to realize they had been sold a bill of goods by Protestant theology.

There are many inside the Catholic Church who study Scriptures a great deal, as I do, who realize that there is no other Church mentioned in Scriptures.

 

[JRKH]

Look at the OT model of the Isrealites. God desired that they would be unlike all the nations surrounding them. The other nations had kings Isreal had judges. It was Gods desire that He be the king of Isreal and that the judges administer the government of the people.
Isreal however wanted to be like the other nations and wanted a king, so God gave them a corrupt king Saul.

Nice place to stop there ol friend -
You fail to note that Saul was followed by David who was followed by Solomon. Both sinful men, but great in the eyes of God. And what would we be missing from the Bible without those two??

God established His congregation on the foundation of Christ. The apostles were to be like the judges. And Christ be the head of the Congregation or Church

Actually this is a pretty nice analogy except for one or two problems.
First of all no one disputes that Christ is King, so there really is no problem here.
Second, when Christ appointed 12 apostles, He did not appoint 12 tribes or Churches. He established a single Church with a Single head, Himself, as King. So your idea of 12 judges falls flat as well.
Actually the Church IS ruled, not by the Pope as “King” but by the Magisterium. Not unlike “Judges”.

however men established a kingdom just like any other earthly kingdom and made the pope like a king.

Since Christ knew He was going to be away for awhile He did what any good king would do. He appointed a Steward, or a Regent, or A Prime minister, or a Vicar, whichever term you prefer. This person oversees the earthly visible Church. Hence the term “Vicar of Christ”. This person holds the keys to the Kingdom. (Sound familiar).

They even disobeyed Jesus own commands not to lord over His people like the gentiles do.

I would be the last person to say that the Church contains no sinners. How about you - Any sinners in your congregation?

The eklessia is the entire assembly of God not the man made institution you claim.

Well then I guess we disagree -
I know what we better do -
We should obey our dear Lord
and do as Paul did with the dissention at Antioch.

Let us:

**“Tell it to The Church”. **

Any Idea where we need to Go?

Peace
James

 

[jmcrae]

The oracles of God were given to us so that we may know God to believe in Him and His ways and to follow Him. It is through His word that God chose to reveal Himself to most of mankind.
The pope has historically carried himself as king, do not fool yourself. Look at his outfit, one of a king -YES. look at his titles --one of a king YES.
Did he not crown princes and raised and destroyed earthly kingdoms.
Stop burrying your head in the sand.

And what are God’s ways, anyway? Look at David, the spiritual leader of Israel, carrying himself like a King, and dressing like a King, even leading armies, waging war, and actually gaining territory at the expense of his pagan neighbors!

OR, maybe God doesn’t mind so much, if His Kingdom maybe has a bit of an earthly component? :newidea:

 

[Hisalone]

given by whom? as far as i know as that the Bible was stolen from the CC.
it was not given it was taken. dont kitty yourself with this nonsense.

stop using the Bible to persecute Jesus Church.
obviously you dont understand it anyway. give it back to where it truly belongs, the Church.

if you truly want to have a civilized conversation stop insulting the Church.

:byzsoc:

:banghead:

 

[JRKH]

:banghead:

:banghead: :yup: Ditto - Ditto

Peace
James

 

[MDK]

The funny thing about the op’s assertion is that more scripture is read at a daily mass than any protestant service I ever attended before I chose to convert. (and that’s a lot)

You’ve got to have something stuffed in your ears not to hear it.

Great observation.

 

[MDK]

The oracles of God were given to us so that we may know God to believe in Him and His ways and to follow Him. It is through His word that God chose to reveal Himself to most of mankind.
The pope has historically carried himself as king, do not fool yourself. Look at his outfit, one of a king -YES. look at his titles --one of a king YES.
Did he not crown princes and raised and destroyed earthly kingdoms.
Stop burrying your head in the sand.

Actually, the King created the office of head Bishop to act as Prime Minister for the King to exercise authority after the King “went away”… ascended to His throne. The King is still on His away on His Heavenly Throne, so the visible Prime Minister’s office still acts with the keys given by the King to act in His behalf. Peter was the first, followed by an unbroken line of successors to this day. It will go on long after you and I have left this earth, hopefully to live with the King.

 

[wisdomseeker]

:banghead:

perhaps a concussion help you to see the Truth.

and your quote makes no sense. it sounds more like a positive thinking type of thing. you think, you desire therefore you get it.

nonsense.

:knight1: :knight2:

 

[Soutane]

Where do you get the notion that only the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic church can properly interpret Scripture?

---

Where did you get the idea it wasn’t?

Just WHO has the ultimate authority to interpret Scripture?

Do you claim that YOU do, SIA? In this regard, then how do you become different from Pio Nono, who claimed the same thing?

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth-not the Bible.Who says so?Read your Bible. timothy 3:15.The Catholic Church.You know,the one Jesus started on the foundation of Peter 2000 years ago.