When a Eastern Catholic goes to Latin Mass

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Chris_McAvoy said:
My comment had to with the original post in that not only do I believe Eastern Catholics ought to follow their traditions at a Latin liturgy but I believe that more modern Latin Catholics ought to follow the traditions practiced in Eastern Churches. Particularly the traditions would be identical to ancient Western rubrics

Make no mistake, though it has its sins and weaknesses in other facets, liturgy is the strong point of the Eastern Church. As it is today it serves as an example to the West, not vice versa. Liturgically the east sets the standard example to be lived up to.

It’s not as if we want to bring guitars into the Eastern Churches now is it?
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Sounds like you are trying to Hellenize the latins.
 
when you say eastern i take it you mean orthodox,

If so then it is frowned about to attend roman mass and where possible you should be atending an orthodox litergy, however, when you are there for whatever reasons you should say your own prayers and carry out your own prostrations and bless yourself in the way your faith dictates.

Speak to either your parish priest or spiritual father.
 
seaneen said:
when you say eastern i take it you mean orthodox,

If so then it is frowned about to attend roman mass and where possible you should be atending an orthodox litergy, however, when you are there for whatever reasons you should say your own prayers and carry out your own prostrations and bless yourself in the way your faith dictates.

Speak to either your parish priest or spiritual father.
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It is my understanding that this dicussion was not about Eastern ORTHODOX churches, but about Eastern CATHOLIC churches, the 22 autonomous particular churches which, along with the latin rite (which is the 23rd particular church), are in full communion with Rome. While many Eastern catholic churches share many things with the Orthodox churches, they are differed from them by being part of the Communion of Catholic Churches, rather than the communion of Eastern Orthodox churches.
 
Oh right i apologise, we call them something else so i didnt realise.
 
An Eastern "Rite" Catholic can attend the Mass of a Latin "Rite" Catholic Church so long as both are in communion with The See of Peter. These are mere "Rites" not blocks to Worship. Any more questions?
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I heard that St. Augustine said to observe the practices and traditions of the church you are visiting. Whenever I am at a Latin Mass I do as they do; but I still cross myself from right to left and silently say the prayer before communion. 😉
 
Taboric_Light said:
I heard that St. Augustine said to observe the practices and traditions of the church you are visiting. Whenever I am at a Latin Mass I do as they do; but I still cross myself from right to left and silently say the prayer before communion. 😉
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😉
 
Chris_McAvoy said:
My comment had to with the original post in that not only do I believe Eastern Catholics ought to follow their traditions at a Latin liturgy but I believe that more modern Latin Catholics ought to follow the traditions practiced in Eastern Churches. Particularly the traditions would be identical to ancient Western rubrics

Make no mistake, though it has its sins and weaknesses in other facets, liturgy is the strong point of the Eastern Church. As it is today it serves as an example to the West, not vice versa. Liturgically the east sets the standard example to be lived up to.

It’s not as if we want to bring guitars into the Eastern Churches now is it?
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The standard for the Western Church is the Traditional Latin Mass (ie. Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great). There’s absolutely no reason to appropriate the traditions of the East - we have an ancient and venerable tradition in the west, which should not simply be discarded in favour of a foreign tradition. It would be the reverse of the error made in latinizing the Eastern Catholic churches.
 
Taboric_Light said:
I heard that St. Augustine said to observe the practices and traditions of the church you are visiting. Whenever I am at a Latin Mass I do as they do; but I still cross myself from right to left and silently say the prayer before communion. 😉
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What prayer?
 
adstrinity said:
What prayer?
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Hi, adstrinity!

As you are probably aware, the entire Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Catholic Church is a flowing back and forth chant between the priest/deacon and the congregation. The single exception is the Prayer Before Holy Communion, which is recited in unison by all participating in the Liturgy rather than chanted.

It is a most beautiful and humbling prayer that certainly helps one to appreciate the magnificent mystery that they’re about to partake in… certainly one of my all-time favorite prayers! Like Taboric Light, I always recite the prayer to myself as well, before receiving Our Lord in a Latin mass.

Here is the Prayer Before Holy Communion…
O Lord, I believe and profess that you are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the first.

Accept me today as a partaker of your mystical supper, O Son of God, for I will not reveal your mystery to your enemies, nor will I give you a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief I profess to you:

Remember me, O Lord, when you come in your kingdom.
Remember me, O Master, when you come in your kingdom.
Remember me, O Holy One, when you come in your kingdom.

May the partaking of your holy mysteries, O Lord, be not for my judgment or condemnation but for the healing of soul and body.

O Lord, I also believe and profess that this, which I am about to receive, is truly your most precious body and your life-giving blood, which, I pray, make me worthy to receive for the remission of all my sins and for life everlasting. Amen.

O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.
O God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
O Lord, forgive me for I have sinned without number.
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Hi, a pilgrim!

here’s the prayer from the Melkite translation:
**I believe, Lord, and profess that You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God, come to this world to save sinners, of whom I am the greatest. I believe also that this is really Your spotless Body and that this is really Your precious Blood. Wherefore I pray to You, have mercy on me and pardon my offenses, the deliberate and the indeliberate, those committed in word and in deed, whether knowingly or inadvertently, and count me worthy to share without condemnation You spotless Mysteries, for the remission of sins and for eternal life. **

Receive me now, O Son of God, as a participant in your Mystical Supper, for I will not betray Your mystery to Your enemies, nor give You a kiss like Judas, but like the thief, I confess You, remember me, Lord, in Your kingdom.
Lord, I am not worthy that You should enter under the stained roof of my soul, but as You accepted to be born in a cave and aid down in a manger for animals, ant to enter the house of Simon the Leper, and to receive, when she approached You, the sinful woman who resembles me: deign to enter both into the manger of my senseless soul and into my stained body, the body of a dead and leprous man. And as You did not recoil when the mouth of the sinful woman kissed Your spotless feet, likewise my Master and God, do not shun the sinner that I am but in Your goodness and love for mankind, grant that I may become a communicant of Your All-Holy Body and Blood.

*O our God, remit, forgive, excuse my transgressions by which I sinned against You, knowingly or inadvertently, in word or in deed. In Your goodness and love for mankind, hold me excused for all of them. Through the prayers of Your all-pure and ever-virgin Mother, grant that I may partake without condemnation of Your precious and spotless Body, for the healing of my soul and body. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and ever. *

May the reception of Your Holy Mysteries, Lord, be for me not to judgment or condemnation, but to the healing of my soul and body.
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Dear Khoria Anna,

That’s an absolutely magnificent translation! I fail to see how one can help but be deeply moved by the humbling and comforting words of this prayer… especially when it’s recited immediately before partaking in the most magnificent Gift of Our Lord’s most precious Body and Blood.

Would that all who approach to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion do so in the appropriate frame of mind and spirit that this prayer certainly establishes.

Thank you for sharing it with us.
 
a_pilgrim said:
It is a most beautiful and humbling prayer that certainly helps one to appreciate the magnificent mystery that they’re about to partake in… certainly one of my all-time favorite prayers! Like Taboric Light, I always recite the prayer to myself as well, before receiving Our Lord in a Latin mass.

Here is the Prayer Before Holy Communion…
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I like that prayer, too. Very nice.

I share your sentiments,as one of my favorite prayers is also said right before communion, although tour Latin version is much shorter and simpler, but i think it expresses much the same sentiments:

Dómine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo, et sanábitur ánima mea.

Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof; say but the word, and my soul shall be healed.
 
As far as the sign of the cross, you are largley free to do it as you like. There is the eastern way, the western way and some people still make a little cross over their forehead.

As to other things, well it depends. If you are the only one standing when everone else is kneeling, it might be ackward. I am an American who moved to Japan and Japanese people just Don’t ever kneel. They won’t do it. If they are praying, they will stand. There is no Kneeling permitted as a Latin Mass in Japan. We stand and we bow but we do not kneel. This is odd because we do actually have the unused kneeling cushions.

When I first came to Japan I did things the American way and would kneel. If I was only going to be in Japan for a week that probably was ok. However, I have since made a life for myself here and I just couldn’t continue to be the only person kneeling at Mass while veryone else was standing so I now stand and do as everyone else. I pray the liturgy of the hours at home and do all my kneeling then.

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with you doing things the Greek way at a Latin Mass but it is up to what you feel comfortable with. You should not take the attitude that you can’t do the Latin way because you think it is wrong. I don’t think you have that attitude but it is one that I have encountered before. Latins refuse to take communion at a Greek Mass because they object to the spoon. Greeks objecting to the Latins kneeling. We are free to do these things and if either was wrong or bad then the Church would not permit them.

At any rate, welcome to Latin Mass and please feel free to come as often as you like or can and participate as much as you can in your way or in ours. What it really boils down to is that each Mass is a continuation of the convenant with Christ and each Mass is an amazing event in and of itself. Heaven and Earth meet and we get to touch our living God. Each Mass you go to should be an amazing event in your life. Yes there are the little things like “are they going to sing the Sanctus straight or do the cheesey version this week” but that is not what Mass is really about. We go to be physically with God and revieve him into ourselves.

If (?when?) reunion with the churches ourside of communion with us takes place in my life time I will be happy to take the train 15 minuetes to the port and attend Greek liturgy and do as the Greeks do (but actually I think they are slavs) and I just hope I can be focused enough on Jesus to not be bothered by the “same spoon phobia” that other Latin have had to deal with when encountering Eastern Churches.
 
Sorry, but Claudius is just plain wrong.

The GIRM specifies that unity of posture is the guiding principle, and the majority of the rubric for the laity. (There are a few postural bits. Not many tho’.)
GIRM 2005:
  1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
    **A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants. **
  2. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluiachant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
    They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the Homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.
    But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.
    Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained.
    **With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration , the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal. **
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Emphasis mine.

Ignoring the rubrics of the Divine Liturgy under any rite is disobedience of the magisterial instruction.

As to the sign of the cross, it’s a minor issue. But overall posture at the DL should be that which is instructed by the celebrant or his assisting deacons or MC’s, or as in the books.
 
Dauphin said:
The standard for the Western Church is the Traditional Latin Mass (ie. Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great). .
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That is not true for the Western Catholic Church of today.
The standard for the Western Church of today is the New Mass or the Mass of Pope Paul VI. You can’t find the Traditional Latin Mass celebtrated in most of the Western Catholic Churches of today. The standard Mass for the Western Church is the Mass that the Pope celebrates on a daily basis and that is the New Mass, or the Mass of Paul VI.

Has this Pope ever celebrated recently what you call the standard Mass publicly? On how many occasions?
 
Claudius said:
At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with you doing things the Greek way at a Latin Mass but it is up to what you feel comfortable with. You should not take the attitude that you can’t do the Latin way because you think it is wrong. I don’t think you have that attitude but it is one that I have encountered before. **Latins refuse to take communion at a Greek Mass because they object to the spoon. **Greeks objecting to the Latins kneeling. We are free to do these things and if either was wrong or bad then the Church would not permit them.
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Interestingly, reception of the Blood of Christ with a spoon or straw IS allowed in the Latin Rite
 
My Melkite parish is unable to offer daily Divine Liturgy so I frequent the local Western parish on weekdays. When there, I do as Taboric Light suggests: follow the Western GIRM instructions on posture. The toughest part is to keep my hands in check, otherwise, I’d be making the sign of the cross several dozen times during the Mass 🤷 . It’s important not to be a distraction to others by following the dictates of my Rite, especially when they conflict with those of the Rite that is gracious enough to allow me to join them. I expect the same of them when they visit my parish. (When in Rome, do as a Roman, when in Antioch do as an Antiochian)

I do, however, read through (silently) the prayer before Communion from my Rite before I receive. And, given the various postures around me by people receiving Communion (a few kneel or genuflect, some bow, most do nothing), I make a “metania” (touch right hand to the ground before making the sign of the Cross), then put my palms together and stick out my tongue to receive. (I used to cross my hands over my chest and stick out my tongue, but it sent confusing mixed signals to the clergy or EMHC.)

BTW: Sign of the Cross, right to left or left to right, either way is OK in either Rite, tho custom may try to dictate otherwise.
 
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