WHen a Pope is a manifest heretic, what duty do we owe him?

[leeyn]

We must never forget the Jesus Christ Himself established the Catholic Church and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it until He returns.
/…

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[Gregory_I]

That doesn’t mean that Satan can’t confuese the church’s visibility in the world. IN fact, a series of writings by Cardinal Giuessepe Siri confirm this: THat the visibility of the church can be all but obscured in the world, even if the church in fact never defects.

 

[kathmandu]

So how would you view the Borgia pope, Alexander VI, or any pope who purchased the papacy back in those days and how does this affect, or not, apostolic succession? Are they heretics? Were they infallible?

 

[JimG]

So how would you view the Borgia pope, Alexander VI, or any pope who purchased the papacy back in those days and how does this affect, or not, apostolic succession? Are they heretics? Were they infallible?

I’m not an expert on the Borgia popes, but it seems that even the worst of popes, from a moral standpoint, did not formally teach heresy. The bad ones were too busy with money and pleasure to do much teaching, let alone teach heresy.

Let me give an example. Suppose I followed every word of a Catholic apologist and considered his writings to absolutely without error. Later I learned that he kept mistresses, cheated on his wife, engaged in embezzlement and had a few opponents killed by hitmen. Would any of that affect the accuracy or quality of his apologetic writings? Not in the least.

 

[kathmandu]

I’m not an expert on the Borgia popes, but it seems that even the worst of popes, from a moral standpoint, did not formally teach heresy. The bad ones were too busy with money and pleasure to do much teaching, let alone teach heresy.

Let me give an example. Suppose I followed every word of a Catholic apologist and considered his writings to absolutely without error. Later I learned that he kept mistresses, cheated on his wife, engaged in embezzlement and had a few opponents killed by hitmen. Would any of that affect the accuracy or quality of his apologetic writings? Not in the least.

Yes, I guess it stands to reason that those involved with worldly things did not spend time with apologetic writings? It is not were their hearts were.

 

[JDaniel]

Others will say it more eloquently that I will here.

The situation you envision is NOT POSSIBLE.

We must never forget the Jesus Christ Himself established the Catholic Church and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it until He returns.

To deny, or at least discount, the Power of the Holy Spirit is to deny or discount the power of God.

No one, except God, can stand firmly on hot air.

GF:

I don’t know about its “eloquence,” but what you said was precise, concise and perfect. It is extremely difficult to conceive of Christ dissociating Himself from the Pope and the Church. The Church would have to have been taken over by scientists, I should think!

God bless,
jd

 

[Gregory_I]

Let me say this again: I am not saying a POpe can formally teach heresy.

But a pope can be a private heretic, and he can even offer heretical opinons.

What duty do we have to an heretical pope?

 

[Vico]

Let me say this again: I am not saying a POpe can formally teach heresy.

But a pope can be a private heretic, and he can even offer heretical opinons.

What duty do we have to an heretical pope?

Reverence (in the role of the Vicar of Christ) and obediance to the teachings, as usual.

 

[praxising]

Sorry, that is wrong. Pope Honorious Was Condemned as a heretic by an ecumenical council.

But wasn’t he condemned about 50 years after he died as Pope and for things he did while he was Pope? So, what’s below didn’t apply. That means his decision, as Pope in good standing, was what the faithful believed and were obliged to follow.

Let me say this again: I am not saying a POpe can formally teach heresy.

But Honorius was a Pope who did formally teach heresy. So they say. I guess one way to change things, if you are part of a different group in power in the Church later, is to declare a dead Pope a heretic and just say he wasn’t “really” Pope. Seems a bit extreme to me. Also really messes up Papal succession.

…

It is definitely possible, read what pope Paul IV wrote in the 16th century in his Papal Bull: Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio

"6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, ***or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: ***

(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;

(iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;

(iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain"

SO if Any Heretic cardinal was appointed as pope, you would have de facto, a heretic Pope, in which case, his election is invalid.

When THIS HAPPENS;

What is our response to a heretic Pope?

 

[tonyrey]

Whether a Pope is a manifest heretic is not always clear-cut unless it is related to a fundamental doctrine like the existence of God or the divinity of Christ. In such cases our duty is to obey our conscience - which is our ultimate authority - and that may entail disobedience. The overriding moral principle is that we should choose what we are convinced is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Coleski]

A heretic still believes in part of the faith. A better question would be if the pope is a manifest apostate. If he was, I’d adhere to the faith as given by Jesus Christ.

 

[tonyrey]

A heretic still believes in part of the faith. A better question would be if the pope is a manifest apostate. If he was, I’d adhere to the faith as given by Jesus Christ.

If he were an apostate I don’t think he would be Pope for very long!
I take “the faith as given by Jesus Christ” to mean the faith as taught by the Catholic Church up to the time of his apostasy.

 

[Vico]

But wasn’t he condemned about 50 years after he died as Pope and for things he did while he was Pope? So, what’s below didn’t apply. That means his decision, as Pope in good standing, was what the faithful believed and were obliged to follow. But Honorius was a Pope who did formally teach heresy. So they say. I guess one way to change things, if you are part of a different group in power in the Church later, is to declare a dead Pope a heretic and just say he wasn’t “really” Pope. Seems a bit extreme to me. Also really messes up Papal succession.

…

Pope Leo II did not confirm the Third Council of Constantinople in there statement against Pope Honorius, so it had no authority. Pope Honorius said that Christ’s human nature is like humanity’s before the Fall: therefore Divine and human wills in agreement.

 

[ImKevin]

wow, what an informative post this is.