When a pope makes mistakes ...

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home
A Pope kissing a false gospel–more or less–gives credence to the false gospel----and you say “We don’t know if it was a bad idea”.

And St. Francis stripping off his clothes might be seen in quite a negative light and in fact was by the locality. What of it? I have my opinion on the matter which pretty much resembles JKirk. You seem to be missing the point and repeatedly not answering the question . Why do people resort over an over to posting something they see as so scandalous? Wouldn’t this be spreading scandal? You know for sure that the whole event was wrong, wrong, wrong and could not have possibly been inspired by anything holy. Got it.

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The topic of this thread by the OP is --When a Pope makes mistakes—How do you think Catholics should respond. You were the one who brought in JP II kissing the Koran in post #4 —followed by bpbasilphx in post 5. Just as you can post your opinion–others can post theirs. You and JKirk do not hold primacy in your opinions. No one is spreading scandal—for the act itself is in full color and trying to sweep it under the rug and/or coming up with excuses for it-- does not help us and the Church in the long run.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

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The topic of this thread by the OP is --When a Pope makes mistakes—How do you think Catholics should respond. You were the one who brought in JP II kissing the Koran in post #4 —followed by bpbasilphx in post 5. Just as you can post your opinion–others can post theirs. You and JKirk do not hold primacy in your opinions. No one is spreading scandal—for the act itself is in full color and trying to sweep it under the rug and/or coming up with excuses for it-- does not help us and the Church in the long run.

Neither does bearing false witness and committing the sin of calumny. When people go on and on and on about it, implying that there were reasons other than the reasons given, what precisely is their motive?

 

[bear06]

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The topic of this thread by the OP is --When a Pope makes mistakes—How do you think Catholics should respond. You were the one who brought in JP II kissing the Koran in post #4 —followed by bpbasilphx in post 5. Just as you can post your opinion–others can post theirs. You and JKirk do not hold primacy in your opinions. No one is spreading scandal—for the act itself is in full color and trying to sweep it under the rug and/or coming up with excuses for it-- does not help us and the Church in the long run.

Now Walking Home, you know very well that is the event that comes up everytime someone wants to show JPII in error. The Koran incident is brought up repeatedly by traditionalists. How many years ago did this happen? Who is still bringing it up? Why? Again, if people think it so scandalous, why bring it up constantly? Again, I didn’t hear about it when it happened. I heard about it years later on radical traditionalist sites. Talk about doesn’t help the Church in the long run.

BTW, I make no excuses. I simply said that none of us can say what his motives were nor that they didn’t come from God. Some Saints have done some pretty weird things that can have a negative outward appearance. My point has always been that if one thinks that it was scandalous then one shouldn’t be perpetuating it. That is spreading scandal whether you like it or not.

 

[Walking_Home]

Neither does bearing false witness and committing the sin of calumny. When people go on and on and on about it, implying that there were reasons other than the reasons given, what precisely is their motive?

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As I said prior—it is the act itself. I did not doctor up the picture of the Pope kissing the Koran—so their goes your accusation of false witness and the sin of calumny . What ever the reason—a false anti-Christ gospel is still that. You accuse others of going on and on–yet the same can be said of you – and your “reasons”. There is no false motive in acknowledging that our Popes are not infallible in each and every aspect of what they say and do and some of their actions can be erroneous.

 

[Marina14]

… How do you think Catholics should respond? For example, I very much love and admire John Paul II, but I think it is possible he made prudential errors. I won’t go into specific actions that concerned me because that is outside of the focus of this thread, and I would appreciate it if those who respond to this thread also refrain from rehashing litanies of alleged papal mistakes.

Do we grumble privately but refrain from airing our concerns publicly to avoid making the Church look bad to non-Catholics and non-Christians? Do we try to understand why the pope did what he did, hoping that there is some logical reason for the action that is presently not on our own radar? Do we publicly challenge such actions with articles and books that may make us feel better but don’t really change anything and may cause scandal?

What do you think?

Depends on the Pope…if he is holier than you: going to Confession every day, receiving Holy Communion each day, praying the full Rosary every day, etc. like Pope John Paul II and you are not - then my first thought is that you must be the one mistaken not the Pope.

The first thing you should do is engage in spiritual warfare realizing that the battlefield of spiritual warfare is usually our minds. Demons can plant little thoughts into our minds, such as someone holy has made a mistake. When these thoughts occur, we are to engage in spiritual warfare: 1. ignore such thoughts 2. prayer 3. arguing with those thoughts, etc.

The second thing you should do is contact your spiritual father and tell him humbly that you think a mistake has been made by the Pope, but that you’re sure that since the Pope is holier than you, you must be the one mistaken and so you would like him to explain to you how you are wrong and that you just want to gain an understanding to ease your mind/conscience.

I am an Orthodox Christian, not a Catholic, so I ***don’t ***believe in the Infability of the Pope, but even I know that it’s silly.

 

[Walking_Home]

Now Walking Home, you know very well that is the event that comes up everytime someone wants to show JPII in error. The Koran incident is brought up repeatedly by traditionalists. How many years ago did this happen? Who is still bringing it up? Why? Again, if people think it so scandalous, why bring it up constantly? Again, I didn’t hear about it when it happened. I heard about it years later on radical traditionalist sites. Talk about doesn’t help the Church in the long run.

BTW, I make no excuses. I simply said that none of us can say what his motives were nor that they didn’t come from God. Some Saints have done some pretty weird things that can have a negative outward appearance. My point has always been that if one thinks that it was scandalous then one shouldn’t be perpetuating it. That is spreading scandal whether you like it or not.

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I know it has been brought up —this time by you—so don’t try to deflect this in this thread–by throwing it in the traditionalists face. The true scandal would be in not acknowledging that our Popes can err by trying to sweep certain actions under the rug.

 

[bear06]

There is no false motive in acknowledging that our Popes are not infallible in each and every aspect of what they say and do and some of their actions can be erroneous.

Sigh! Here we go again. I bet if you say it enough it’ll become true. Nobody said the Pope couldn’t make an error. Nobody said that Popes are infallible in everything they do. Why is it that you constantly try and bring this red herring up? Did you even bother reading the beginning of this thread? Where, again, did we say the Pope couldn’t err?

 

[bear06]

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I know it has been brought up —this time by you—so don’t try to deflect this in this thread–by throwing it in the traditionalists face. The true scandal would be in not acknowledging that our Popes can err by trying to sweep certain actions under the rug.

Which, again, nobody has done, have they? Maybe you should read the topic again. You have yet to address it.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

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Nice try OneAugustKnight–but acknowledging that a Pope’s actions can be erroneous —does not lead to separation from the Church.

Right, I’m trying to make a point but I guess I’m not stating it very well.

I’ll try to use an example:

When my husband is in error, I try not complain or discuss the issue with anyone we know because I love him. Even if he makes a mistake in front of other people, I try not to draw attention to it. I don’t want to make him look bad or stupid to our friends and family and I don’t want to humiliate him or harm his reputation.

In a similar way, some Catholics acknowledge that the Pope is not sinless, but would rather not draw attention to his mistakes and sins. It makes people angry when they hear other people criticize the Pope in the same way it makes people angry if you talk about their mother. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, people don’t like hear ugly things about people they love.

If you think I am wrong, I would be interested in knowing what you believe is the Catholic way to respond when you think the Pope makes a mistake.

ETA: I do think you should inform loved ones of their errors, I just think it should be done privately. And I don’t think that people who air their opinions of the Pope’s actions are sinning, I just prefer my way.

 

[Walking_Home]

Sigh! Here we go again. I bet if you say it enough it’ll become true. Nobody said the Pope couldn’t make an error. Nobody said that Popes are infallible in everything they do. Why is it that you constantly try and bring this red herring up? Did you even bother reading the beginning of this thread? Where, again, did we say the Pope couldn’t err?

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No red herring—and be carefull you do not choke on that sigh. It would seem what has been said by you, JKirk etc. —the Pope made an error/mistake–but with qualifiers (reasons/excuses)—yet the act speaks for itself. I don’t try to sweep it and/or make it suitable by qualifying it.

 

[Walking_Home]

Right, I’m trying to make a point but I guess I’m not stating it very well.

I’ll try to use an example:

When my husband is in error, I try not complain or discuss the issue with anyone we know because I love him. Even if he makes a mistake in front of other people, I try not to draw attention to it. I don’t want to make him look bad or stupid to our friends and family and I don’t want to humiliate him or harm his reputation.

In a similar way, some Catholics acknowledge that the Pope is not sinless, but would rather not draw attention to his mistakes and sins. It makes people angry when they hear other people criticize the Pope in the same way it makes people angry if you talk about their mother. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, people don’t like hear ugly things about people they love.

If you think I am wrong, I would be interested in knowing what you believe is the Catholic way to respond when you think the Pope makes a mistake.

ETA: I do think you should inform loved ones of their errors, I just think it should be done privately. And I don’t think that people who air their opinions of the Pope’s actions are sinning, I just prefer my way.

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It would depend on the mistake/error. If my loved one made an error (ex. nothing wrong with using birth control pills) --that would tend to lead another in a wrong way–I would not leave the person going down the wrong road. It would not be charitable of me–to let my loved one deceive another. It is not charitable to the author of the error and to the one that may be influence by the error.

 

[bear06]

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No red herring—and be carefull you do not choke on that sigh. It would seem what has been said by you, JKirk etc. —the Pope made an error/mistake–but with qualifiers (reasons/excuses)—yet the act speaks for itself. I don’t try to sweep it and/or make it suitable by qualifying it.

Actually, what I said was that I subjectively thought it was probably a mistake. Whether that’s the objective case or not remains to be seen and is probably the first thing I’ll ask the Holy Father when we meet. I’m not sure where the “sweep it under the rug” comes from. We simply can’t see why it’s brought up which, of course, goes along with the topic of the thread. We certainly can’t see the benefit from the “Look everybody at what JPII did wrong! Look at what JPII did wrong 20 years ago! Look! Look!” mentality and I’m finding it hard to believe you do. We’re coming up on 20 years of the “Koran Incident”. I want to know why people who think this is so darn scandalous repeatedly bring it up? Like I said, this wouldn’t have even been a footnote if not for the radical traditionalists. Why is it still up on the Remnant, Traditio, Daily Catholic, etc.? So, WH, why do you think they insist on flogging JPII with this after so long?

 

[bear06]

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It would depend on the mistake/error. If my loved one made an error (ex. nothing wrong with using birth control pills) --that would tend to lead another in a wrong way–I would not leave the person going down the wrong road. It would not be charitable of me–to let my loved one deceive another. It is not charitable to the author of the error and to the one that may be influence by the error.

They weren’t asking about a loved one. They were asking about the Holy Father. Odds of you having a personal audience where you can lead him to the right path are slim to none.

 

[Walking_Home]

Actually, what I said was that I subjectively thought it was probably a mistake. Whether that’s the objective case or not remains to be seen and is probably the first thing I’ll ask the Holy Father when we meet. I’m not sure where the “sweep it under the rug” comes from. We simply can’t see why it’s brought up which, of course, goes along with the topic of the thread. We certainly can’t see the benefit from the “Look everybody at what JPII did wrong! Look at what JPII did wrong 20 years ago! Look! Look!” mentality and I’m finding it hard to believe you do. We’re coming up on 20 years of the “Koran Incident”. I want to know why people who think this is so darn scandalous repeatedly bring it up? Like I said, this wouldn’t have even been a footnote if not for the radical traditionalists. Why is it still up on the Remnant, Traditio, Daily Catholic, etc.? So, WH, why do you think they insist on flogging JPII with this after so long?

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Really bear06—I believe in the other current thread on this very topic–a link to Jimmy Akins site has the picture of the Koran kissing—so don’t go pointing a finger at others. We will have to face the fact that the late Pope’s actions are not going to go away for it has affected us all–and unfortunately do contribute to the a tendency of religious indifference.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home

It would depend on the mistake/error. If my loved one made an error (ex. nothing wrong with using birth control pills) --that would tend to lead another in a wrong way–I would not leave the person going down the wrong road. It would not be charitable of me–to let my loved one deceive another. It is not charitable to the author of the error and to the one that may be influence by the error.

They weren’t asking about a loved one. They were asking about the Holy Father. Odds of you having a personal audience where you can lead him to the right path are slim to none.

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If you had taken note–OneAugustKnight used the example of a loved one to make his/her pt in reference to the Pope. I used a similar example.

 

[bear06]

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Really bear06—I believe in the other current thread on this very topic–a link to Jimmy Akins site has the picture of the Koran kissing—so don’t go pointing a finger at others. We will have to face the fact that the late Pope’s actions are not going to go away for it has affected us all–and unfortunately do contribute to the a tendency of religious indifference.

Did you actually read the Jimmy Akin article?! He’s not even sure if it was the Koran. And, he makes it quite clear he’s not taking a swipe at the Holy Father:

First, I’ve reprinted the famous picture of the event above so that people can see what is being talked about.

I do think that the event has definitely affected some but not me. BTW, when have you seen one person who expresses religious indifference say “Look at the Pope kissing the Koran!” In fact, most who practice religious indifference don’t watch the radical traditionalist sites and probably don’t know about the incident. The overwhelming majority of people obssessed with this one are the radical traditionalists, sedevacantists and then there are some fundementalist site. Birds of a feather…

So WH, I’ll again ask you:

I want to know why people who think this is so darn scandalous repeatedly bring it up? Like I said, this wouldn’t have even been a footnote if not for the radical traditionalists. Why is it still up on the Remnant, Traditio, Daily Catholic, etc.? So, WH, why do you think they insist on flogging JPII with this after so long?

 

[Walking_Home]

Did you actually read the Jimmy Akin article?! He’s not even sure if it was the Koran. And, he makes it quite clear he’s not taking a swipe at the Holy Father:

I do think that the event has definitely affected some but not me. BTW, when have you seen one person who expresses religious indifference say “Look at the Pope kissing the Koran!” In fact, most who practice religious indifference don’t watch the radical traditionalist sites and probably don’t know about the incident. The overwhelming majority of people obssessed with this one are the radical traditionalists, sedevacantists and then there are some fundementalist site. Birds of a feather…

So WH, I’ll again ask you:

I want to know why people who think this is so darn scandalous repeatedly bring it up? Like I said, this wouldn’t have even been a footnote if not for the radical traditionalists. Why is it still up on the Remnant, Traditio, Daily Catholic, etc.? So, WH, why do you think they insist on flogging JPII with this after so long?

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Apparently bear06—you stopped short in the article. All that eye rolling and implications of birds of a feather —really do not do much for you. It only shows that it is not to low for you to get down to scrape the bottom of the barrel to try and associate me with sedes and such.

jimmyakin.org/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html

However, the former Chaldean patriarch–Raphael Bidawid–was present at the meeting where the event occurred, and in an interview with the press service FIDES, he said the following:

On May 14th I was received by the Pope, together with a delegation composed of the Shi’ite imam of Khadum mosque and the Sunni president of the council of administration of the Iraqi Islamic Bank. There was also a representative of the Iraqi ministry of religion. I renewed our invitation to the Pope, because his visit would be for us a grace from heaven. It would confirm the faith of Christians and prove the Pope’s love for the whole of humanity in a country which is mainly Muslim.

At the end of the audience the Pope bowed to the Muslim holy book, the Qu’ran, presented to him by the delegation, and he kissed it as a sign of respect. The photo of that gesture has been shown repeatedly on Iraqi television and it demonstrates that the Pope is not only aware of the suffering of the Iraqi people, he has also great respect for Islam [SOURCE].

 

[bear06]

And if you went on to read, Akin goes onto say this:

What, then, is one to make of the event?

It seems that there are a number of possibilities:

1. The FIDES news agency misquoted the patriarch.

1. Patriarch Bidawid was mistaken about what happened. It was not the Quran but something else.

1. John Paul II kissed the Quran but didn’t know the nature of the book he was kissing.

1. John Paul II kissed the Quran and knew that this is what he was doing.

I would love to think that either option (1), (2), or (3) was the case, but I have no evidence that any of them was the case.

The most likely one of the three, to my mind, would be (3), because so far as I know, John Paul II was not an Arabic speaker and may not have understood the nature of the book that he was being presented with.

People shove all kinds of books into the pope’s hands at audiences, and if the pope was under the impression that the thing to do with a gift in Iraqi culture is to kiss it as a sign of respect to the one who gives the gift then he might have kissed it reflexively, not even understanding the nature of the book.

Akin is hardly taking the Holy Father to task. He basically says that this who incident has nothing to do with indefectibility or infallibility. I think everyone here agrees with this. So, I guess I can keep using my rolley eyes. As Jimmy Akin says, he’s addressing it because people keep asking Mr. Apologist about it. Why does Daily Catholic bring it up?

And btw, still waiting for an answer on these questions:
want to know why people who think this is so darn scandalous repeatedly bring it up? Like I said, this wouldn’t have even been a footnote if not for the radical traditionalists. Why is it still up on the Remnant, Traditio, Daily Catholic, etc.? So, WH, why do you think they insist on flogging JPII with this after so long?

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Note:

This thread is not about whether or not John Paul II was correct to kiss the Qur’an. It is about the proper response of Catholics to what they perceive to be papal mistakes. Please return to the original topic. Thank you.

 

[Walking_Home]

And if you went on to read, Akin goes onto say this:
…
People shove all kinds of books into the pope’s hands at audiences, and if the pope was under the impression that the thing to do with a gift in Iraqi culture is to kiss it as a sign of respect to the one who gives the gift then he might have kissed it reflexively, not even understanding the nature of the book

Akin is hardly taking the Holy Father to task. He basically says that this who incident has nothing to do with indefectibility or infallibility. I think everyone here agrees with this. So, I guess I can keep using my rolley eyes. As Jimmy Akin says, he’s addressing it because people keep asking Mr. Apologist about it. Why does Daily Catholic bring it up?

And btw, still waiting for an answer on these questions:
want to know why people who think this is so darn scandalous repeatedly bring it up? Like I said, this wouldn’t have even been a footnote if not for the radical traditionalists. Why is it still up on the Remnant, Traditio, Daily Catholic, etc.? So, WH, why do you think they insist on flogging JPII with this after so long?

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Again you stopped short. Now going down the road you took—by the response the Chaldeans gave Jimmy Akins–it would seem–you would have them flocking with the sedes, radical traditionalists, etc.

To answer you question—the scandal is not that it is brought up by some----the scandal is --that it happened. When it is brought up–admit that it was an error/mistake and not try to qualify it with excuses.

From the article.

While this is possible, I think it likely that an interpreter explained the nature of the gift that was being given on this occasion. This still leaves the possibility that the pope kissed it as part of Middle Eastern politeness rather than as a gesture of respect for the book itself.

I have heard claims that in some Middle Eastern cultures that this is a typical gesture of respect for one giving a gift, but I have asked Chaldean friends of mine whether this is the case in Iraqi culture and the answer was a definite “No.” “The pope put his foot on the neck of all Chaldeans with this action” was the response I was given. (Just to make things clear, putting your foot on the neck of someone is a bad thing in Iraqi culture.)

…