When a pope makes mistakes ...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tabby
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
catharina said:
Are you joking? Do you imagine that the CCC and Code of Canon Law are IT, the total package, that those two books define all Church Teaching, both Scripture and Tradition? Read the theologians. Take a course in Ethics, from a Roman Catholic philosopher, study more, pray more. Do what you have to do, but don’t bother me again. Really. I’m not here “to instruct you” while dealing with your chronic insults.
Click to expand...
Non–answer catharina. Admit the truth.
 
catharina said:
Originally Posted by catharina;2940415e
As Roman Catholics, we are NOT ALLOWED to accuse anyone of being guilty of any **specific sin **at any given time. Most other Christians are taught the very same thing. It has ALWAYS been that way. Quite likely, it will always be that way. It has ALWAYS been that way. We are the laity. ALWAYS. ! ]

I spoke the truth. You don’t accept it. Tough.

Quote=catharina
of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279
Click to expand...
You made the statement that we are NOT ALLOWED to accuse anyone of being guilty of any specific sin at any given time. We cannot bring up anothers sins at any given time—meaning at no time can we bring up anothers faults.

Look at detraction. If a person has an objective valid reason —they can disclose another’s faults and failing. So by your own hand --you have made the statements you made–not be true.
 
Walking_Home said:
You made the statement that we are NOT ALLOWED to accuse anyone of being guilty of any specific sin at any given time. We cannot bring up anothers sins at any given time—meaning at no time can we bring up anothers faults.

Look at detraction. If a person has an objective valid reason —they can disclose another’s faults and failing. So by your own hand --you have made the statements you made–not be true.
Click to expand...
One is not allowed to imagine, decide, decree, pronounce another’s sin and then announce it. The Church can do as she chooses and determines as necessary, yes. We who are RC may not. Sins against the eighth commandment: yes, the real deal.

Sorry if you don’t/won’t/can’t comprehend the fact.
 
catharina said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
You made the statement that we are NOT ALLOWED to accuse anyone of being guilty of any specific sin at any given time. We cannot bring up anothers sins at any given time—meaning at no time can we bring up anothers faults.

Look at detraction. If a person has an objective valid reason —they can disclose another’s faults and failing. So by your own hand --you have made the statements you made–not be true

One is not allowed to imagine, decide, decree, pronounce another’s sin and then announce it. The Church can do as she chooses and determines as necessary, yes. We who are RC may not. Sins against the eighth commandment: yes, the real deal.

Sorry if you don’t/won’t/can’t comprehend the fact.
Click to expand...
Do you honestly think anyone is going to believe what you just wrote. The CCC is the teachings that pertain to us and are to be followed.

Maybe you can comprehend the following. We cooperate and participate by the following. By not disclosing a sin when we have an obligation to do so–we are actually protecting the evil doers.

What you advocate is cooperation, participation and becoming an accomplice in the sin of another.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6D.HTM

. The Proliferation of Sin

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
    **- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so; **
    - by protecting evil-doers.
    1869
**Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. **Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. “Structures of sin” are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144
 
Walking_Home said:
Do you honestly think anyone is going to believe what you just wrote. The CCC is the teachings that pertain to us and are to be followed.

Maybe you can comprehend the following. We cooperate and participate by the following. By not disclosing a sin when we have an obligation to do so–we are actually protecting the evil doers.

What you advocate is cooperation, participation and becoming an accomplice in the sin of another.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6D.HTM

. The Proliferation of Sin

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
    **- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so; **
    - by protecting evil-doers.
    1869
**Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. **Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. “Structures of sin” are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144
Click to expand...
You just don’t (won’t?) get it.

You are in no position to decide that the ‘late Holy Father sinned, publicly and without repentance:’ You haven’t the capability or authority to make that decision. That’s a fact. Anything else, the “knowledge” of another’s “public and unrepented sin” is your opinion, your fantasy. That’s the truth and the fact no matter how much you might want to justify the opposite.
 
catharina said:
You just don’t (won’t?) get it.

You are in no position to decide that the ‘late Holy Father sinned, publicly and without repentance:’ You haven’t the capability or authority to make that decision. That’s a fact. Anything else, the “knowledge” of another’s “public and unrepented sin” is your opinion, your fantasy. That’s the truth and the fact no matter how much you might want to justify the opposite.

Originally Posted by catharina;2940415e
As Roman Catholics, we are NOT ALLOWED to accuse anyone of being guilty of any specific sin at any given time. Most other Christians are taught the very same thing. It has ALWAYS been that way. Quite likely, it will always be that way. It has ALWAYS been that way. We are the laity. ALWAYS. ! ]
Click to expand...
catharina—do not try to deflect away from what we were discussing. I made no mention of the Holy Father sinning (nor did I accuse) . If you say otherwise—please provide the post where I made such an accusation.

We were in discussion the statements you made above. I have provided the section from the CCC that disproves your statements. In case you are not aware—providing proof from the CCC is not a fantasy. And that catharina–is the truth—and nothing but the truth.
 
Walking_Home said:
catharina—do not try to deflect away from what we were discussing. I made no mention of the Holy Father sinning (nor did I accuse) . If you say otherwise—please provide the post where I made such an accusation.

We were in discussion the statements you made above. I have provided the section from the CCC that disproves your statements. In case you are not aware—providing proof from the CCC is not a fantasy. And that catharina–is the truth—and nothing but the truth.
Click to expand...
I’ve said it before, now I’ll say it again: suit yourself.

Reminder:
Judge as you chose but then expect to be judged in your turn.
(Jesus says.)

Have you ever read the New Testament?
You have a mind. Remember the good old Batimore Catechism?

"Know love serve God in this world.
“Love God with your heart, soul, mind and strength.”

We are to use our minds as adults, not search for suitable quotes in the Catechism or in Canon Law. Read the Gospels. Or don’t - since you have free will. {You plan to arrive in heaven with a Catechism under your arm to justify what can’t be justified?)
 
catharina said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
catharina—do not try to deflect away from what we were discussing. I made no mention of the Holy Father sinning (nor did I accuse) . If you say otherwise—please provide the post where I made such an accusation.

We were in discussion the statements you made above. I have provided the section from the CCC that disproves your statements. In case you are not aware—providing proof from the CCC is not a fantasy. And that catharina–is the truth—and nothing but the truth.

I’ve said it before, now I’ll say it again: suit yourself.

Reminder:
Judge as you chose and expect to be judged in your turn.
Click to expand...
catharina—if you have a problem --your problem is with what the Church teaches. Oh and I am positive the Church is aware of “Judge as you chose and expect to be judged in your turn”—so as I said—your problem is with what the Church teaches.
 
Fine - if your conscience is clear about that, then keep on judging the state of another’s soul.

Die with that as your practice. Your choice. Not mine.
 
Before you forget the initial issue, I objected to another’s claim that she considered the Pope as guilty of an unrepented public sin. I said ‘as RCs, we are not to do that. EVER.’

You said ‘oh yeah, sez who?’

I said, says Jesus. You still fighting?
Live with that.
 
catharina said:
Fine - if your conscience is clear about that, then keep on judging the state of another’s soul.

Die with that as your practice. Your choice. Not mine.
Click to expand...
catharina–you seem to forget --the Church is the interpreter of scripture. On Her interpretation --She gives us our teachings. You seem to be making of yourself—an interpreter above the Church. If the Church says we are Not to co-operate, participate and become accomplices in sin —no one should be even questioning anothers person conscience in this matter.
 
Quite frankly, I’ve gotten lost in the back and forth here. I think Catharina is basing her objections of joanofarc3’s post here that was made in response to a Koran incident post:
Very true, but a public sin requires a public recantation
Click to expand...
.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2918471&postcount=45

and a subsequent post.

I think she’s (and rightly so) concerned with people saying that the Holy Father has publicly sinned. I don’t remember WH saying that but it has been said in this thread.

And before anyone says that I’m implying he can’t sin, don’t. This has not been said. I remember hearing that he made daily confessions so I’m guessing he wasn’t just there to chat. That said, I don’t see how anyone can qualify the “Koran incident” as a public sin.
 
catharina said:
Before you forget the initial issue, I objected to another’s claim that she considered the Pope as guilty of an unrepented public sin. I said ‘as RCs, we are not to do that. EVER.’

You said ‘oh yeah, sez who?’

I said, says Jesus. You still fighting?
Live with that.
Click to expand...
What are you taking about catharina. You state you objected to another posters claim etc. – then state “You said “oh yea sez who””.
If the “You” is directed at me—please provide the post where I made such a statement.
 
Walking_Home said:
catharina–you seem to forget --the Church is the interpreter of scripture. On Her interpretation --She gives us our teachings. You seem to be making of yourself—an interpreter above the Church. If the Church says we are Not to co-operate, participate and become accomplices in sin —no one should be even questioning anothers person conscience in this matter.
Click to expand...
Choke this down, fella.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way: (CCC)

joanofarc stated that the late Holy Father was unrepentant of a public sin. I said she cannot determine that: either the “facr of a sin” or anyone’s state of repenteance. She backpedalled under the public pressure of others. Excused herself with “oh i was angry so I said that.”

I said we are not free to judw/question another’s motivation and claim that another has sinned. She had no personal witness or involvement. Instead she passed judgment and declared her opinion to be truth to be fact. I said we as RCs are NOT free to do that. EVER. You said we are called to declare another’s sin. You are in outer space about this.

We can say another’s action seems to be based in sin, seems to resemble sinful behavior. We can NOT EVER declare another person to be sinful. EVER EVER EVER. Get it? Dude? We can rebuke a person if they invite us to join them in behavior that we know to be sinful for us as a matter of our own informed consciience. Can we declare the other to be engaged in sin? NO - because to do so would mean we could read his soul, jusdge his conscience, have awareness of his motivatrion and his entire history. We, the laity, have no jurisdiction in the matter of judging another’s actual sinfulness. How can you deny this?
 
bear06 said:
Quite frankly, I’ve gotten lost in the back and forth here. I think Catharina is basing her objections of joanofarc3’s post here that was made in response to a Koran incident post:
.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2918471&postcount=45

and a subsequent post.

I think she’s (and rightly so) concerned with people saying that the Holy Father has publicly sinned. I don’t remember WH saying that but it has been said in this thread.

And before anyone says that I’m implying he can’t sin, don’t. This has not been said. I remember hearing that he made daily confessions so I’m guessing he wasn’t just there to chat. That said, I don’t see how anyone can qualify the “Koran incident” as a public sin.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify — bear06 —my current discussion with catharina does not involve the Holy Father. It involves section 1868 and 1869 of the CCC. Again–on my part it did not involve the Holy Father.
 
By not disclosing a sin when we have an obligation to do so–we are actually protecting the evil doers.
Click to expand...
What would make YOU obliged to disclose a sin of the Holy Father? Do you think that if someone sins you are automatically obligated to make this public? I’m guessing no but I’m not really sure how your line of argument here pertains to the topic of the thread.🤷
 
Walking_Home said:
What are you taking about catharina. You state you objected to another posters claim etc. – then state “You said “oh yea sez who””.
If the “You” is directed at me—please provide the post where I made such a statement.
Click to expand...
well big oops. punctuation confuse you?

try this: “You said ‘oh yeah sez who’”.

That’s called a paraphrase. Please get a life.
 
Walking_Home said:
Just to clarify — bear06 —my current discussion with catharina does not involve the Holy Father. It involves section 1868 and 1869 of the CCC. Again–on my part it did not involve the Holy Father.
Click to expand...
The problem is that her comments were based on comments made against the Holy Father which she quoted and I gave the link for. We can go off on tangents 'til the cows come home but if we’re all debating different things, there really is no point. She was quite clear in that she was talking about the charge that the Pope publicly sinned. Can you agree that this would be wrong?
 
catharina said:
Choke this down, fella.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way: (CCC)

joanofarc stated that the late Holy Father was unrepentant of a public sin. I said she cannot determine that: either the “facr of a sin” or anyone’s state of repenteance. She backpedalled under the public pressure of others. Excused herself with “oh i was angry so I said that.”

I said we are not free to judw/question another’s motivation and claim that another has sinned. She had no personal witness or involvement. Instead she passed judgment and declared her opinion to be truth to be fact. I said we as RCs are NOT free to do that. EVER. You said we are called to declare another’s sin. You are in outer space about this.

We can say another’s action seems to be based in sin, seems to resemble sinful behavior. We can NOT EVER declare another person to be sinful. EVER EVER EVER. Get it? Dude? We can rebuke a person if they invite us to join them in behavior that we know to be sinful for us as a matter of our own informed consciience. Can we declare the other to be engaged in sin? NO - because to do so would mean we could read his soul, jusdge his conscience, have awareness of his motivatrion and his entire history. We, the laity, have no jurisdiction in the matter of judging another’s actual sinfulness. How can you deny this?
Click to expand...
catharina—you may not understand how the CCC works. One section of the CCC does not over-ride another section of the CCC. Otherwise—the Church would not know what she was teaching. So sections 1868 and 1869 still stand.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top