When Abstinance is not mutually agreed upon

[sixlittlesaints]

I have a dilemna. My husband is absolutely opposed to having any more children. He believes, rightly so, that a pregnancy would be very hard on me and on the family. I agree that now would not be the best time to have another child but I am still not opposed to the idea. Dh wants to use nfp very conservatively so we can still have sex but not take any chances of conceiving. We are a very fertile coupld so this leaves us very few days for intimacy. I feel rejected everytime I express an interest in lovemaking. I feel like my husband puts his fear of pregnancy above our marriage. How can I become more understanding and less hurt when he rejects me during even very low possibility days? Or how can I help him to become less afraid of another child. I know he would be horrified and angry if we were to conceive. I am afraid he would blame me for mischarting if we did. I would rather abstain entirely than risk his horror at our new baby. Any advice?

 

[JRKH]

Sounds like you have an incredibly loving husband and he has an incredibly loving wife. God has blessed you both abundantly with each other.

Let’s look at some of your comments…

We are a very fertile couple so this leaves us very few days for intimacy.

They are very few - how often - per month? If so that is not unreasonable…

I feel rejected every time I express an interest in lovemaking. How can I become more understanding and less hurt when he rejects me during even very low possibility days?

Well - you might think of these times as “foreplay”…

Or how can I help him to become less afraid of another child.

Is he afraid of another child or is he afraid of losing you?

I know he would be horrified and angry if we were to conceive. I am afraid he would blame me for mis-charting if we did. I would rather abstain entirely than risk his horror at our new baby.

I don’t really think (based on what you have said) that he would blame you…If he DID say such a thing it would just be the fear talking…
You are truly loving to be willing to choose abstinence over putting your husband through such a “horror”.

I feel like my husband puts his fear of pregnancy above our marriage.

I believe that this statement right here is the core…Judging by your screen name, you already have 6 children…from what you say earlier you would rather abstain entirely than have your husband “horrified” if you did conceive…
He is obviously concerned on several levels over having any more children…I’m sure that the possibility of losing you is chief among them. He loves you very much.

About all I can really say is to hold onto that love tightly. Recognize that he is not “rejecting”, but rather, “protecting”, you when he turns you down on those “low probability” days.

Hope this helps a little…

Peace
James

 

[rayne89]

Have you actually learned NFP already? I am always a bit confused when people say they are very fertile. You ovulate once per month -the egg can only live for 24 hours -at max sperm live 5 days most die within 48 to 72 hours. So even if your hubby has stellar sperm that leaves you many days, plus you can be very affectionate without intercourse.

 

[Allegra]

Have you actually learned NFP already? I am always a bit confused when people say they are very fertile. You ovulate once per month -the egg can only live for 24 hours -at max sperm live 5 days most die within 48 to 72 hours. So even if your hubby has stellar sperm that leaves you many days, plus you can be very affectionate without intercourse.

What I think most people mean when they say that they are “very furtile” is that they have an extensive mucus cycle that presents itself much more than the average 4-5 days prior to ovulation. If the woman has good mucus for that long, the sperm can possibly live in it for that whole period. If this is the case, one thing the couple can do is try a different kind of NFP that doesn’t rely on visually identifying mucus.

To the OP- It sounds like you and your husband have a good relationship but you just aren’t board with his quite reasonable concern that a seventh child is not what your family is called to at the moment. If you have discussed the pro and con and have determined that this is not the time, why are you approaching your husband with hopes of lovemaking on days you know are potentially furtile? This strikes me as unfair. Maybe you can think of some way to approach him to affirm your love and affection for him as aperson that aren’t sexually motivated.

 

[mrs_ahs]

I’m sorry, that sounds really difficult. So if I’m understanding you correctly, your husband is rejecting your advances during days that are infertile according to your chosen method? In other words, he is adding extra days of abstinence in addition to what is required? I can sympathize with him to an extent, and understand the desire to be extra sure by adding an extra day after peak, or avoiding completely in phase one. Beyond that though, I think it may be excessive. On your part, I would caution you not to cut corners at all, if you are expecting that he will accept your advances when it could potentially be a fertile day because that’s putting him in an unfair situation if you truly agree that pregnancy is a bad idea right now. (I don’t know if this is what you are doing or not since I couldn’t tell from your post. I’m just sayin’.)

Is this a situation that will probably be permanent or do you think he will be more open to more children if the situation changes? If it’s something that might change, maybe there are things you can do to get circumstances to that point more quickly?

 

[mrs_ahs]

Have you actually learned NFP already? I am always a bit confused when people say they are very fertile. You ovulate once per month -the egg can only live for 24 hours -at max sperm live 5 days most die within 48 to 72 hours. So even if your hubby has stellar sperm that leaves you many days, plus you can be very affectionate without intercourse.

But NFP cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint when exactly those 24 hours occur. Ovulation can occur anywhere from 3 days before to 3 days after an identified peak day. So that’s 6 days, plus the 5 days that sperm can live. (Anecdotally, sperm can live longer than that.) Sometimes there are very short mucus patches that don’t give much warning of impending ovulation. This occurs often as women get older - they ovulate earlier. Because of this, many women who consider themselves to be highly fertile abstain totally in phase one. Especially those who have already experienced a “method failure” resulting from phase one intercourse. In phase two, most methods require abstinence until peak + 4, and some women have shorter luteal phases, like 10-11 days. So from peak + 4 to the next period would be only 6 days per cycle in this case.

Let me give you some examples of women I consider to be “very fertile”:

• a woman who has not had a period for over a decade because she does a cycle of giving birth, breastfeeding and not ovulating, then getting pregnant on the first ovulation, over and over and over.
• a woman who became pregnant twice by engaging in marital relations followed by NINE completely dry days before peak. Her pregnancies were deemed physically impossible by the people at the headquarters of her method, yet those children do exist.
• a woman whose four children ALL resulted from a slight bending of the rules of her method, when she had never bent the rules other than those four times
• a woman who tries to conceive and becomes pregnant on the very first try, over and over, even into her 40s

And yes, these are all real women that I know personally. It happens. I consider these women very fertile compared with, say, one who has to try for 2 or 3 or more cycles before getting pregnant. I’d consider that to be more average fertility.

Clearly not all sperm received the memo that they are only allowed to live for 5 days.

And for some of us, being very affectionate without intercourse is almost impossible. I know “they” say that it’s great to do this when you’re dealing with necessary abstinence, but after 8 years of marriage to a wonderful man, I can tell you that the best way for us to abstain is to watch a good action flick, take cold showers (not together), and then sleep in separate beds.

 

[captaincatholic]

I don’t know if this will help you, but we are tta, and it helps so much for me to take flax oil as a supplement, since it seems to extend my phase 3 time by a few days. It is hard. Also, prayers that your hubby is valuing you and that both of you see God’s Will in your life.

 

[Faith0]

you can be very affectionate without intercourse.

??? It is my understanding that both should reach full climax during penetration and not any way else. Otherwise, I have been told by a priest that it is a sin. This is a very touchy subject and would think that the priest who explained this to me makes perfect sense, but at times I think that maybe it is ok to reach climax without penetration as long as one is with their spouse and they both agree upon it

 

[underacloud]

I have a dilemna. My husband is absolutely opposed to having any more children. He believes, rightly so, that a pregnancy would be very hard on me and on the family. I agree that now would not be the best time to have another child but I am still not opposed to the idea. Dh wants to use nfp very conservatively so we can still have sex but not take any chances of conceiving. We are a very fertile coupld so this leaves us very few days for intimacy. I feel rejected everytime I express an interest in lovemaking. I feel like my husband puts his fear of pregnancy above our marriage. How can I become more understanding and less hurt when he rejects me during even very low possibility days? Or how can I help him to become less afraid of another child. I know he would be horrified and angry if we were to conceive. I am afraid he would blame me for mischarting if we did. I would rather abstain entirely than risk his horror at our new baby. Any advice?

Reading your post, I’d suggest there’s some confusion in the way you are thinking. You have a problem with your husband wanting to use NFP very conservatively, yet you go on to suggest totally abstaining rather than risking pregnancy. I’m not sure how to reconcile these lines of thought.

If you agree with your husband that you should avoid a pregnancy (for now, or even indeffinitely), which you seem to, then you two should discuss how you will approach NFP and agree on the criteria. Once agreed on, you should not express interest in sex unless it’s an agreed safe day for the two of you. If you approach him on debatable days, where you’re not sure but want to take a risk (even if small), you will put unfair pressure on him. It goes both ways of course, so if it’s an agreed safe day, he should have no reason to reject your advances. If he does, then it’s quite unfair. Either way, it comes down to communication and both of you knowing, and agreeing, upon the progress on your cycle.

 

[sixlittlesaints]

Thank you for the advice. I believe that I did not express my feelings or the situation very well. My husband and I are going through some very serious problems in our marriage. Our communication has always been poor. Lately he has expressed that he feels we are incompatible. We’ve been married 12 years and have six children on earth and one in Heaven. I have been pregnant or breastfeeding or both continuously from three weeks into our married life. We did learn nfp but have used mostly lam to space our children. Anyways, my husband’s sudden decision, made completely on his own without my (name removed by moderator)ut, to decide never again to have a new child left me feeling very rejected and afraid for the security of our marriage. My total abstinance idea was really just an expression of my fears. We have been talking regularly so I think we are finally on the right path. I am still nervous, though, and would appreciate any prayers.

On another note, I have never liked nfp. I am not able to confidently interpret my mucus signs so I do not know how to tell when phase 3 begins. To be sure we count the last day of any mucus or moisture as peak. Counting three from there usually leaves phase 3 beginning around day 24. My cycles are only 28 days long, so all intimacy occurs from day 24 through the first five days of my period. We abstain at least 19 days each cycle. The 19 abstinance days are the only days when I have any sexual desire at all and the only days when I experience any physical sensations during relations. During the infertile times I often feel like a spectator observing him having fun but will occasionally experience a spiritual or emotional closeness. His decision to never again have relations during the fertile period seems to me like the end of our mutual physical relationship in many ways. I am having a hard time accepting this and an even harder time getting him to emphasize with my feelngs. Any suggestions?

 

[JRKH]

you can be very affectionate without intercourse.

??? It is my understanding that both should reach full climax during penetration and not any way else. Otherwise, I have been told by a priest that it is a sin. This is a very touchy subject and would think that the priest who explained this to me makes perfect sense, but at times I think that maybe it is ok to reach climax without penetration as long as one is with their spouse and they both agree upon it

Faith - what you say is true…But please note that “very affectionate” does not equal “climax”. I am “very affectionate” with my wife and we cannot have marital relations at all…

Peace
James

 

[fpt]

But NFP cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint when exactly those 24 hours occur. Ovulation can occur anywhere from 3 days before to 3 days after an identified peak day. So that’s 6 days, plus the 5 days that sperm can live. (Anecdotally, sperm can live longer than that.) Sometimes there are very short mucus patches that don’t give much warning of impending ovulation. This occurs often as women get older - they ovulate earlier. Because of this, many women who consider themselves to be highly fertile abstain totally in phase one. Especially those who have already experienced a “method failure” resulting from phase one intercourse. In phase two, most methods require abstinence until peak + 4, and some women have shorter luteal phases, like 10-11 days. So from peak + 4 to the next period would be only 6 days per cycle in this case.

Let me give you some examples of women I consider to be “very fertile”:

• a woman who has not had a period for over a decade because she does a cycle of giving birth, breastfeeding and not ovulating, then getting pregnant on the first ovulation, over and over and over.
• a woman who became pregnant twice by engaging in marital relations followed by NINE completely dry days before peak. Her pregnancies were deemed physically impossible by the people at the headquarters of her method, yet those children do exist.
• a woman whose four children ALL resulted from a slight bending of the rules of her method, when she had never bent the rules other than those four times
• a woman who tries to conceive and becomes pregnant on the very first try, over and over, even into her 40s

And yes, these are all real women that I know personally. It happens. I consider these women very fertile compared with, say, one who has to try for 2 or 3 or more cycles before getting pregnant. I’d consider that to be more average fertility.

Clearly not all sperm received the memo that they are only allowed to live for 5 days.

And for some of us, being very affectionate without intercourse is almost impossible. I know “they” say that it’s great to do this when you’re dealing with necessary abstinence, but after 8 years of marriage to a wonderful man, I can tell you that the best way for us to abstain is to watch a good action flick, take cold showers (not together), and then sleep in separate beds.

What is the physical tenderness that is moral during sexual abstinence within the couple?

The possible answers :

1.For some people, the solution would be of being like " brother and sister ", but this expression seems to me not very irrelevant, even enough so absurd.

This quote " And for some of us, being very affectionate without intercourse is almost impossible ". [why and are you okay with?] "I know “they” say that it’s great to do this when you’re dealing with necessary abstinence, but after 8 years of marriage to a wonderful man, I can tell you that the best way for us to abstain is to watch a good action flick [okay], take cold showers (not together) [okay], and then sleep in separate beds and why and are you okay with?]

1. In my opinion, each couple has to find his " creative abstinence " with the physical tenderness without orgasm. The only rule is to avoid the orgasm. The fact of being very affectionate does not mean the orgasm, what is so different. Sexually exciting? or arousal? Sexually exciting = arousal = orgasm, I do not think so. " Are you okay with me?

How to define the good use of the prudence and the common sense on this topic without scrupulism…etc.? In this situation: what is the near occasion of sin?; what are the constitutive elements of the near occasion of sin?; how do you evaluate the risk of this conjugal sin?

 

[mrs_ahs]

What is the physical tenderness that is moral during sexual abstinence within the couple?

The possible answers :

1.For some people, the solution would be of being like " brother and sister ", but this expression seems to me not very irrelevant, even enough so absurd.

This quote " And for some of us, being very affectionate without intercourse is almost impossible ". [why and are you okay with?] "I know “they” say that it’s great to do this when you’re dealing with necessary abstinence, but after 8 years of marriage to a wonderful man, I can tell you that the best way for us to abstain is to watch a good action flick [okay], take cold showers (not together) [okay], and then sleep in separate beds and why and are you okay with?]

1. In my opinion, each couple has to find his " creative abstinence " with the physical tenderness without orgasm. The only rule is to avoid the orgasm. The fact of being very affectionate does not mean the orgasm, what is so different. Sexually exciting? or arousal? Sexually exciting = arousal = orgasm, I do not think so. " Are you okay with me?

How to define the good use of the prudence and the common sense on this topic without scrupulism…etc.? In this situation: what is the near occasion of sin?; what are the constitutive elements of the near occasion of sin?; how do you evaluate the risk of this conjugal sin?

There is no “creative abstinence” for us. We’ve been married 8 years and we know how things work for us. During the fertile time, kissing each other in our bed leads to sex, period, end of story. Back rubs are very tempting. We can hold hands in public, that’s about it. Just because a behavior doesn’t lead to an orgasm doesn’t mean we should seek to do it when we’re fertile! We’re not going to push the envelope as far as we can and then stop. We’ve done that and it is not good for us. It may work for some people. For us, there is simply no point in engaging in these behaviors if we are avoiding pregnancy. It’s counter-productive and unfair. I’m glad some couples are able to be very affectionate during the fertile phase without being overly tempted. We are not one of those couples. We aren’t being scrupulous - we’re being sensible. That doesn’t mean that we are rude to each other during the fertile phase. We simply have a mutual understanding that has developed over many years. If you think it’s absurd, that’s alright. It really doesn’t affect you, so you can think whatever you want about it.

 

[Faith0]

Faith - what you say is true…But please note that “very affectionate” does not equal “climax”. I am “very affectionate” with my wife and we cannot have marital relations at all…

Peace
James

I see, I misunderstood since the only way to achieve pregnancy is through climax and that is what the topic in question is all about

 

[louisak]

My husband and I are going through some very serious problems in our marriage. Our communication has always been poor. Lately he has expressed that he feels we are incompatible.

Well, now we have come to the real problem. About the only comforting thing I can say is that many people, including quite a few devout Catholics, are in the same boat. But I hope you understand that the overall quality of your relationship is the most important thing. If this isn’t fixed then you are never going to resolve the problems surrounding abstinence.

I myself have doubted, at times, whether I did the right thing in proposing marriage to my wife. There were some important issues that I chose to ignore at that time, which I now have to live with. But I would NEVER in a million years tell my wife this. I love her dearly and it would break her heart. So, I am wondering why your husband chose to reveal his feelings to you on this point. With all your years of marriage, and all the children you have, your marriage is a fact and his commitment to you is a fact. Whether you are “compatible” is now totally irrelevant. Is it typical for him to be heartless? If so, sexual abstinence is not your biggest problem.

 

[fpt]

There is no “creative abstinence” for us. We’ve been married 8 years and we know how things work for us. During the fertile time, kissing each other in our bed leads to sex, period, end of story. Back rubs are very tempting. We can hold hands in public, that’s about it. Just because a behavior doesn’t lead to an orgasm doesn’t mean we should seek to do it when we’re fertile! We’re not going to push the envelope as far as we can and then stop. We’ve done that and it is not good for us. It may work for some people. For us, there is simply no point in engaging in these behaviors if we are avoiding pregnancy. It’s counter-productive and unfair. I’m glad some couples are able to be very affectionate during the fertile phase without being overly tempted. We are not one of those couples. We aren’t being scrupulous - we’re being sensible. That doesn’t mean that we are rude to each other during the fertile phase. We simply have a mutual understanding that has developed over many years. If you think it’s absurd, that’s alright. It really doesn’t affect you, so you can think whatever you want about it.

Thank you for your respond. The sentences of your witness seems to me moderate, fair and very in link with your personal experiences (very casuistical). I like that.

Now, I understand very well the difference between a sensible couple (very aware after experimentation with the use of reason, rationality) and a scrupulous couples (wrong mentalities, wrong intellectual approaches, the irrationality).

For me, your message is very helpful for my best understanding of this practical topic. Yes, thank a lot.

 

[underacloud]

On another note, I have never liked nfp. I am not able to confidently interpret my mucus signs so I do not know how to tell when phase 3 begins. To be sure we count the last day of any mucus or moisture as peak. Counting three from there usually leaves phase 3 beginning around day 24. My cycles are only 28 days long, so all intimacy occurs from day 24 through the first five days of my period. We abstain at least 19 days each cycle. The 19 abstinance days are the only days when I have any sexual desire at all and the only days when I experience any physical sensations during relations. During the infertile times I often feel like a spectator observing him having fun but will occasionally experience a spiritual or emotional closeness. His decision to never again have relations during the fertile period seems to me like the end of our mutual physical relationship in many ways. I am having a hard time accepting this and an even harder time getting him to emphasize with my feelngs. Any suggestions?

Do you monitor temperatures? My wife and I were using the Billings method (mucus observations) for the first several years of marriage but found it difficult. We moved to the sympto-thermal method and found it much better, where we could confirm ovulation through the temperature increase. Based on the numbers you note, if you have a typical luteal phase (~14 days), you should be ovulating around day 14 of your cycle, so should be able to confirm this via temperature and begin phase III on about day 18. So currently you may be missing out on about a week of completely safe days. So perhaps you should look into alternative NFP methods that will work better for you than your current system.

 

[rayne89]

??? It is my understanding that both should reach full climax during penetration and not any way else. Otherwise, I have been told by a priest that it is a sin. This is a very touchy subject and would think that the priest who explained this to me makes perfect sense, but at times I think that maybe it is ok to reach climax without penetration as long as one is with their spouse and they both agree upon it

When I say very affectionate I do not mean climax.

 

[momtojeam]

Have you ever heard of the ladycomp? It’s a glorified thermometer gadget that will predict your fertile days and basically do all of the charting for you. Very expensive, but may be worth it if it increases your ‘green light’ days. I am thinking about getting one for myself. Google it!