When all else fails

[R_Daneel]

…comes the final “argument”. It says: “Who are you to question God?”, or “God is supreme, he is the Creator, whatever he does, you cannot question him”. Or, as the Bible puts it:

Romans 9:19-21 (New International Version)

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Which, of course is nothing but shouting down the objection, when there are no more arguments left. Translation: “Might makes right!”. Whatever the guy with the big stick says must be obeyed, since he is the strong one, and the weak ones must submit. When push comes to shove, this is what Christianity boils down to.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

…comes the final “argument”. It says: “Who are you to question God?”, or “God is supreme, he is the Creator, whatever he does, you cannot question him”. Or, as the Bible puts it:

Romans 9:19-21 (New International Version)

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Which, of course is nothing but shouting down the objection, when there are no more arguments left. Translation: “Might makes right!”. Whatever the guy with the big stick says must be obeyed, since he is the strong one, and the weak ones must submit. When push comes to shove, this is what Christianity boils down to.

On a purely pragmatic level, the argument is correct. God’s intelligence is infinite, and there is no way we’ll ever prove Him wrong and ourselves right. You yourself will one day die, and on that day will find yourself facing a Judgment seat. Moreover there will no hope the judgement is wrong.

However most Christians that I know are prepared, to the limits of their ability, to argue the toss. But if we’re going to have a fair competition, then pit an atheist physicist against a Christian physicist if the argument is about quantum physics; pit an atheist historian against a Christian historian if the argument is about church or ancient Jewish history; an atheist philosopher against a Christian philosopher / theologian (there are of course no atheist theologians).

At least God allows you to argue against His authority. The crucified Christ made the comment, “Blessed is he who is not offended in me”. in saying that He gives you the freedom to choose for Him, or reject Him.

Most human tyrants don’t let anybody question *their *authority. they’d have you up against a wall in very short order.

 

[o_mlly]

…comes the final “argument”. It says: “Who are you to question God?”, or “God is supreme, he is the Creator, whatever he does, you cannot question him”. Or, as the Bible puts it:

Romans 9:19-21 (New International Version)

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Which, of course is nothing but shouting down the objection, when there are no more arguments left. Translation: “Might makes right!”. Whatever the guy with the big stick says must be obeyed, since he is the strong one, and the weak ones must submit. When push comes to shove, this is what Christianity boils down to.

I think you’ve almost got it. A few word changes and you’re spot on!

**Translation: “Right makes might!”. Whatever the guy who is right says should be obeyed, since he is the right one, and the wrong ones ought to submit. When push comes to shove, this is what Christianity boils down to.

To refect reality, I substitute the subjunctive mood for your indicative mood – do not many in fact resist His will? That many do question and resist God 's will even though He is omnipotent proves His omnibenevolence.

God made creature’s and gave them the ability to judge their own Creator – a (fallen) rational mind and a free will. I’d say that boils down to a pretty generous gift.

 

[JohnDamian]

We have been gifted the capacity to think, and the capacity to express - nessecarily then, as God is an infinite being the (potential) consequence of human rejection was acquiesced too; this is an essential part of the praxis of infinite will and omniscience.

So, whilst many people may overstepping their capacities in proclaiming questions to (of) God, this expression itself (though fallacious) is permissable per the nature of God’s gift of freedom, a curtailing of such would be a contradiction to a kind and loving God, and thus cannot be; for the will to love is not one of compulsion, but merely an invitation.

For the essence of love itself is prior to its praxis, and by consequence it’s manifestation is not one of force, but merely suggestion.

 

[R_Daneel]

Sorry, you all misunderstood my point.

God does not argue, God is silent. It is not God, whom I question, it is YOU. If God is right, why doesn’t he tell us? But God does does not do it. He leaves the arguing to the apologists, to YOU. And with all due due respect, you are all ineffective. It is not God who says: “shut up”, it is YOU - when all of your arguments are refuted. Be it about the problem of evil, about the horrific events in the Old Testament, about God’s non-showing love… eventually you run out of arguments, and then the final “argument” is coming: “God is all-powerful, so shut up!”. It is the apologists, who say “might makes right” - not God.

O_mlly has a good point, he who is right should be obeyed. Though “being right” does not make “might”. The trick is, how do we know that God is right? God does not tell us. And when you try to speak for God, you fail - and fail miserably.

Bob Crowley says that God allows us to argue. Undoubtedly. He also says that human tyrants put you up against the wall. And his point is valid. But he forgets that God does not just simply “put you up against the wall”, he puts you into hell, for eternal suffering. You know what? I choose the human tyrant.

You all say that I will know - eventually. When I am up against to God, who will judge me. You also say, that by that time it is too late. And you call that “fair” and “just”. Sorry, such an argument stinks, and stinks up to high heaven - if there is one.

 

[JohnDamian]

I did not misunderstand the point.

I made it clear that it is God’s intent (as acquiesced) to not compel you to belief in him through action or force, for this would be contrary to God’s gift of volition.

That is why “God is silent”

. If God is right, why doesn’t he tell us?

Because this would violate your free volition, and would compel you to believe, which would be contrary to God’s essence; for his essence is prior to his praxis, it is therein essential that as (if) his essence is good, that he must not violate your free volition or nolition.

And with all due due respect, you are all ineffective.

I am sorry to hear that we have been unable to convince you, it is a testemant to our flaws and humanity - we must try harder to grow in our faiths and understandings always, so as we can try to help our fellow man to the best of our abilities; sorry that we have (as yet) failed.

It is not God who says: “shut up”, it is YOU - when all of your arguments are refuted.

I make it a point to never say shut up; but we must understand that all people, even apologists are human,

“God is all-powerful, so shut up!”. It is the apologists, who say “might makes right” - not God.

As I made clear in my earlier post; the manifestation of God’s omnipotence is posterior to his essence, and as his essence is loving; his potency cannot be manifest in a contradictory or compulsive sense - to compel your will.

You all say that I will know - eventually. When I am up against to God, who will judge me. You also say, that by that time it is too late. And you call that “fair” and “just”.

It is not our place to judge you as a person, we can only try to help with what we percieve to be true.

 

[o_mlly]

Sorry, you all misunderstood my point.

I thought I understood.

God does not argue, God is silent.

He talks to me all the time. One must only be still and willing to listen. All I do is parrot what He tells me.

O_mlly has a good point, he who is right should be obeyed. Though “being right” does not make “might”.

I must disagree. There is great power in the Truth.

 

[OpenSource]

Suppose all your kid wants are Oreos for dinner (mine does).

You say ‘no’. You know that they’re bad for his teeth, not very nutritious compared to his normal vegetables and he’ll be hyper all night because of the sugar.

His limited understanding cannot comprehend these reasons. So he can either get all bent out of shape because of it and starve…or he can choose to eat the vegetables that I gave to him. He doesn’t have a choice.

I suppose since God is the creator with infinite knowledge and understanding, I’ll trust that he knows better than I do. This is where pride comes into effect. I can either humble myself and graciously accept that perhaps I’m not in full posession of all knowledge, or lie to myself thinking I know everything that God does and make a decision based on that. If you don’t like it, than you can starve. Personally, I feel very humbled to be nourished by our good Lord.

Your entire argument is based off of pride.

 

[R_Daneel]

Because this would violate your free volition, and would compel you to believe, which would be contrary to God’s essence; for his essence is prior to his praxis, it is therein essential that as (if) his essence is good, that he must not violate your free volition or nolition.

Sorry, this makes no sense. Even if I knew that God exists, I would still retain my freedom to have a certain relationship with him. And not the belief or disbelief is what matters, it is the relationship what does - which should be “love”, or “adoration” or “worship” - again according to believers. It is absolutely impossible to have a relationship with someone, whose very existence is in doubt.

 

[R_Daneel]

He talks to me all the time. One must only be still and willing to listen. All I do is parrot what He tells me.

What can I tell you? He most certainly does not talk to me. And, please, don’t tell me that he does, I just close my ears. It would be presumptuous to say something like that. And don’t say that I must wait long enough to hear it. And don’t say that I “demand” that God meets my terms. Been there, heard it, have a t-shirt to prove it…

I must disagree. There is great power in the Truth.

No, there is none. Even the word (capitalized) Truth is meaningless. But, let’s take you seriously. Jesus said that even if one has as small a faith as a mustard seed, he can tell that mountain: “move yonder” and the mountain will comply. Now, either no one has faith even as small as a mustard seed, of Jesus did not mean what he said, or there is no power in faith.

 

[R_Daneel]

Suppose all your kid wants are Oreos for dinner (mine does).

You say ‘no’. You know that they’re bad for his teeth, not very nutritious compared to his normal vegetables and he’ll be hyper all night because of the sugar.

His limited understanding cannot comprehend these reasons. So he can either get all bent out of shape because of it and starve…or he can choose to eat the vegetables that I gave to him. He doesn’t have a choice.

This is all well and good, but you will abandon this line of thought in no time. If we are truly just small children, then it would be extremely unfair to judge us as adults. One does not punish children with infinte torture. Now, are we children or not? Could we understand the reasons, if God chose to give those reasons to us? If we would be unable to comprehend those reasons, we are really just like children (or retards) - and not adults. If we could understand them, then we are ignorant or retarded adults, and one does not punish ignorance either, especially if the necessary information is withheld.

I suppose since God is the creator with infinite knowledge and understanding, I’ll trust that he knows better than I do. This is where pride comes into effect. I can either humble myself and graciously accept that perhaps I’m not in full posession of all knowledge, or lie to myself thinking I know everything that God does and make a decision based on that. If you don’t like it, than you can starve. Personally, I feel very humbled to be nourished by our good Lord.

Your entire argument is based off of pride.

Ah, yes, good old “pride”. God did not tell me anything, he did not tell me that he is the “creator with infinite knowledge and understanding”. Only you (in general) tell me that, and I “pride” myself to have at least a good understanding as you (in general) - though I have no “faith”. I must go by my “God-given” intellect, and will not hang it up in the cloakroom, when it comes to theology. And my intellect tells me that you (general you, again!) are full of hot air. (Please don’t take my words personally!)

 

[JRKH]

You all say that I will know - eventually. When I am up against to God, who will judge me. You also say, that by that time it is too late. And you call that “fair” and “just”. Sorry, such an argument stinks, and stinks up to high heaven - if there is one.

I agree that such a curcumstance would stink to high heaven. But I believe that you have misunderstood the idea of who judges and how.

When a person comes before God, it is not God who judges so much as we who judge ourselves.

Have you ever done something to a friend, and then later bitterly regretted it?
Have you ever accused someone of something and then found out they were innocent?

It is your guilt that convicts in these situations. In fact we generally judge ourselves more harshly than our friend does.

Same With God. When we come before something so Good, So loving, So wonderful as God, we see how horribly we have treated Him by our failures that we convict ourselves.
In the case os someone who has completely rejected God - The athiest, His own, honest guilt at coming before this Love will be to seek nothing less than eternal punishment.

Peace
James

 

[OpenSource]

This is all well and good, but you will abandon this line of thought in no time. If we are truly just small children, then it would be extremely unfair to judge us as adults. One does not punish children with infinte torture. Now, are we children or not? Could we understand the reasons, if God chose to give those reasons to us? If we would be unable to comprehend those reasons, we are really just like children (or retards) - and not adults. If we could understand them, then we are ignorant or retarded adults, and one does not punish ignorance either, especially if the necessary information is withheld.

An interesting take on a simple explanation that I have given in my limited understanding I guess. You read too far into what I posted, took what I said out of context and are way off-base.

Some people need reasons, others need God. You choose to obey him out of love or out of fear of punishment, much like your own parents. Or you choose not to obey him at all. Understanding is not the issue, but obedience is. If understanding why the sky is blue would lead one into eternal happiness, so be it.

Ah, yes, good old “pride”. God did not tell me anything, he did not tell me that he is the “creator with infinite knowledge and understanding”. Only you (in general) tell me that, and I “pride” myself to have at least a good understanding as you (in general) - though I have no “faith”. I must go by my “God-given” intellect, and will not hang it up in the cloakroom, when it comes to theology. And my intellect tells me that you (general you, again!) are full of hot air. (Please don’t take my words personally!)

Again, you read too far into a simple post and take my words out of context. Do what you want.

 

[o_mlly]

What can I tell you? He most certainly does not talk to me. And, please, don’t tell me that he does, I just close my ears. It would be presumptuous to say something like that. And don’t say that I must wait long enough to hear it. And don’t say that I “demand” that God meets my terms. Been there, heard it, have a t-shirt to prove it…

Moi, presumptuous? But beware, the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

No, there is none. Even the word (capitalized) Truth is meaningless. But, let’s take you seriously. Jesus said that even if one has as small a faith as a mustard seed, he can tell that mountain: “move yonder” and the mountain will comply. Now, either no one has faith even as small as a mustard seed, of Jesus did not mean what he said, or there is no power in faith.

How else would you take me if not seriously? Since you have no faith, you’ll never know if you could have moved a mole hill, right? Pity.

 

[R_Daneel]

I agree that such a curcumstance would stink to high heaven. But I believe that you have misunderstood the idea of who judges and how.

When a person comes before God, it is not God who judges so much as we who judge ourselves.

Have you ever done something to a friend, and then later bitterly regretted it?
Have you ever accused someone of something and then found out they were innocent?

It is your guilt that convicts in these situations. In fact we generally judge ourselves more harshly than our friend does.

Same With God. When we come before something so Good, So loving, So wonderful as God, we see how horribly we have treated Him by our failures that we convict ourselves.
In the case os someone who has completely rejected God - The athiest, His own, honest guilt at coming before this Love will be to seek nothing less than eternal punishment.

Peace
James

That is interesting, but far from being satisfactory. To answer your specific questions, no I have not. I very much try to treat everyone fairly, and I am not willing to “condemn” anyone without extreme pressure, when all the possible excuses have been exhausted and found wanting.

I have absolutely no qualms about being judged by anyone, God or myself. I see no signs of a God, much less signs of “loving God”. If God “loves” us, he hides it soo well, that none of it shows. Something to clarify: “I do not and did not ever reject God”. I, however, reject all the nonsense brought up in defense of God. I wholeheartedly reject the all the apologist arguments as sheer cop-outs and BS.

Besides, what you say is not supported by the Scriptures. It is God who will judge us. “Vengence is mine”, says the Lord. “It is frightening to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews). Also, if those who stand in front of God, and realize their incredible error in their ways, by realizing it - they repent. And God is supposed to merciful - IF one repents. Are we supposed to be repentant only while we are unaware of God’s existence?

 

[R_Daneel]

An interesting take on a simple explanation that I have given in my limited understanding I guess. You read too far into what I posted, took what I said out of context and are way off-base.

Some people need reasons, others need God. You choose to obey him out of love or out of fear of punishment, much like your own parents. Or you choose not to obey him at all. Understanding is not the issue, but obedience is. If understanding why the sky is blue would lead one into eternal happiness, so be it.

Again, you read too far into a simple post and take my words out of context. Do what you want.

I just took your words seriously. No, not out of “context”, I replied to everything what was said - there was no “context” left out. Your words could be taken literally, and I answered them as such. Maybe you meant them allegorically, but there was no sign of that. If so, then the meaning is lost on me.

 

[R_Daneel]

Moi, presumptuous?

I merely said: “it would be…” - but you did not. It was just a pre-emptive strike on my part.

But beware, the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

I looked and did not find it. Is that a sign of “resistance”?

How else would you take me if not seriously? Since you have no faith, you’ll never know if you could have moved a mole hill, right? Pity.

No, I could not. But I could watch you to do it. Are you up for the experiment? Oops… it is sinful to “test” God… how conveeenient.

 

[redhen]

I made it clear that it is God’s intent (as acquiesced) to not compel you to belief in him through action or force, for this would be contrary to God’s gift of volition.

That is why “God is silent”

Because this would violate your free volition, and would compel you to believe, which would be contrary to God’s essence; for his essence is prior to his praxis, it is therein essential that as (if) his essence is good, that he must not violate your free volition or nolition.

This reminds of Jack Nicholson’s scene in A Few Good Men; “You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!”

Apparently there were many angelic beings who lived in the very presence of God, and yet rebelled, exercising their** free will**.

 

[JohnDamian]

Apparently there were many angelic beings who lived in the very presence of God, and yet rebelled, exercising their** free will**.

As the wills supremacy over intellection is itself experientially real (viz. to liken as not is to imply experientiality is not, is to imply etc. Solipsism and the jokeable like).

It is only conceivable that the manifestation of God per say, to human (not angelic per say) experience would in its infinite potency nessecitate such a change as to surpass or at the minor, detriment the true freedom of volition or nolition.

Viz. a wholly Godly manifesation of God, in an apodeictical and empirical sense, would in its infinitude, (tantamount) compel.

And as compulsion (or coercion, powerfull suggestion) are manifestations contradictory to God’s essence (and essence as prior to manifestation) cannot be so, if we take his essence as Good.

 

[lemondiesel]

…comes the final “argument”. It says: “Who are you to question God?”, or “God is supreme, he is the Creator, whatever he does, you cannot question him”.

Which, of course is nothing but shouting down the objection, when there are no more arguments left. Translation: “Might makes right!”. Whatever the guy with the big stick says must be obeyed, since he is the strong one, and the weak ones must submit. When push comes to shove, this is what Christianity boils down to.

First of all, we do not question this “God” with a face to face argument or anything of the sort. We can not question God, because God is supreme and the creator, lol so yes whatever this “God” does, you have no objection.

This means that this “God” is the ultimate cause. Whatever the “God” is, he can influence Laws of the Universe, because he** caused **them to exist. We can not question these Laws, because without them, “we” might not be here.

In actuality, these Laws have allowed us to exist, and to question them is to question our existence.

Christianity should not be singled out. Many religions have evolved so far from what their basic core teachings are. This “God with the big stick” does not rule over us, because this “god” has allowed us to live, and has given us the ability to shape our own lives. Like I said, we can not question this “God” because questioning is questioning “existence.”

“Questioning God, is questioning existence”
Which is why people have strayed/expanded from the simplest religion, the belief in cause and effect.