When Are You Married?

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Don’t forget the necessity of both persons being baptized in either case for it to be a sacramentla marriage then thus unbreakable. That is another necessity to sacramental marriage.
 
well, I stopped wearing my wedding ring because fingers swelled in pregnancy and I could never get it on again. I tell people with 4 kids, 2 mortgages, 3 car payments and a dog and a cat, I’m married and I have the grey hair to prove it.
 
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puzzleannie:
well, I stopped wearing my wedding ring because fingers swelled in pregnancy and I could never get it on again. I tell people with 4 kids, 2 mortgages, 3 car payments and a dog and a cat, I’m married and I have the grey hair to prove it.
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And I am sure that every one of those grey hairs were earned with love - God Bless you.
 
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Singinbeauty:
I have been involved in a discussion on another set of boards about this and I would like to get your opinion on it. Here is the OP in this other forum…
I also want to take this one step further…
What do you think?
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I believe marriage is a Sacrament and is therefore a means of communicating Grace. It is through the authority given to the apostles(and to their successors)in the ministerial priesthood that God has chosen to “bind and loose” members of the body of Christ.
Individuals were not given the authority to marry themselves sacramentally. In the absense of a sacrametally valid marriage any activity reserved for the sacred relationship of man and wife becomes sin.

Hey, have a great day! 👍

Phil
 
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Singinbeauty:
This was the point of the thread. Since God knows the heart of the couple does it matter whether a priest or a pastor presides over it?
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But God knows everything - why should that have any bearing on the topic? God knows our hearts but still requires baptism for discipleship (Matt 28:19). He knows our hearts and still requires us to “profess” our faith. We could go on and on with all the things God has required of us even though he knows our hearts. Why should it be any different for Marriage?
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Singinbeauty:
If God knows that your entire desire is to include ONLY Him into your union, would He view it as wrong if you didn’t include the Church for whatever reason.
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IF your only desire is to include Him, why would you abandon the mystical body of Christ of which Jesus is the head - the Church?
And remember, you said in another thread that God is “everywhere and in US” if you exclude anyone, have you not excluded God according to your logic? Why abandon the terms He established? It sounds like you are creating a situation which is basically a contradiction: to wish to include ONLY God while simultaneously excluding God (body of Christ). Such situations and options will appear logical however, when you simply follow an individual interpretation of Scripture. Once you exclude the “pillar and foundation of truth”, who will be left to tell you, “No, you are wrong. Marriage outside of the Church is wrong.” And what would make their opinion more valid than your own?

“Peace of mind is knowing you are loved by God and that you are doing His will” JP2

Phil
 
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Philthy:
Individuals were not given the authority to marry themselves sacramentally.
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Actually, the priest is not the minister of the sacrament of matrimony, the couple themselves are. They in fact are the only people capable of sacramentally marrying themselves. The problems arose in church history when there was no witness from the church. That later became a requirement for a valid marriage, barring foreseeable conflicts in which a dispensation is given prior to the wedding. The OP’s question is not whether the church sees the couple as validly married but whether God does. The answer is what was going on in their circumstances and their thoughts and emotions at the time they took the vows. If they were Catholic and were able to marry in a Catholic church and chose not to would be different than if they were not Catholic or did not have access to any clergy.
One point that was not previously pointed out is that if they were stranded on a desert island but later rescued, the people could have a convalidation.

Matrimony
Contrary to popular misconception, the priest does NOT confer the sacrament of Holy Matrimony—the priest is merely the ‘witness’ to the man and woman making their vows before God. It is the husband and wife who ‘minister’ the Sacrament to themselves from God. However, the fact that a husband and wife make the sacrament between themselves and God does not mean that they can ‘unmake’ this union, as it is an agreement until the death of one of the parties.
 
One point that was not previously pointed out is that if they were stranded on a desert island but later rescued, the people could have a convalidation.
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If the conditions were met for the use of the extraordinary form of marriage by two Catholics otherwise not impeded, they would marry validly and would not be eligible for, or need, convalidation, according to canon 1116:

"§1. If a person competent to assist at marriage according to the norm of law cannot be present or approached without grave inconvenience, those who intend to enter into a true marriage can contract it validly and licitly before witnesses alone only: 1º in danger of death; 2º outside the danger of death provided that it is prudently foreseen that the situation will continue for a month.

“§2. In either case, if another priest or deacon who can be present is available, he must be called and be present at the celebration of the marriage together with the witnesses, without prejudice to the validity of the marriage before witnesses only.”

The willful and idiosyncratic desire to bypass the required canonical form would not present a grave inconvenience though.
 
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Philthy:
I believe marriage is a Sacrament and is therefore a means of communicating Grace. It is through the authority given to the apostles(and to their successors)in the ministerial priesthood that God has chosen to “bind and loose” members of the body of Christ.
Individuals were not given the authority to marry themselves sacramentally.** In the absense of a sacrametally valid marriage any activity reserved for the sacred relationship of man and wife becomes sin.**

Hey, have a great day! 👍

Phil
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Bolded by me.

A man and a woman can have a valid marriage without it being a sacramental marriage. If they are not baptised or just one of them are baptised it’s not a sacramental marriage, but is considered by the Church to be a natural and valid marriage. The marital embrace it’s not a sin in such a marriage.
 
This is not part of the original question, but if one of the spouses is Catholic, we are bound by the precepts of the church to obey the laws of the church on marriage. If we do not, the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is denied to that person, because he/she is not in considered to be in a state of grace.
 
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Sunniva:
Bolded by me.

A man and a woman can have a valid marriage without it being a sacramental marriage. If they are not baptised or just one of them are baptised it’s not a sacramental marriage, but is considered by the Church to be a natural and valid marriage. The marital embrace it’s not a sin in such a marriage.
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Not a valid marriage as it is not sacramental but it could be a licit marriage as it could be what is called a “natural marriage” as long as the proper permissions are given by the competant authority.
 
I stumbled on this message, and perhaps can use some feedback, so here goes. It started in college, when we couldn’t get married or I’d lose SSA benefits so that I could attend school, so we made a ‘marriage vow to one another with God as our witness’. Stupidly, we mutually broke up as we each thought the other did not love them anymore. He married in the church, had a child, and then called me out of the blue after less than four years of marriage advising of his separation and impending divorce. In a dream I had during my interim dating years, I dreamt that a priest told me I could not get married in church because I had already married. After his divorce, I became pregnant, which neither one of us was prepared for, particularly him. Things were pretty rough in that pregnancy, and, during that time, before I was even married, a priest advised I could get an annulment. We were married by a j.p. (and not in another faith) on the advice of the same priest so that some day we could be married in the church; I was 6 months into the pregnancy and I can’t tell you how often my husband has apologized for putting me through this ordeal. Nearly 30 years later I’m still waiting for my spouse to get the annulment papers through, that he kept picking up every now and again. We’re finally going to a seminar together to get cracking on this. We always loved each other, though there were many difficult times, and many arguments about the annulment issue. I have firmly believed that our ‘vow’ way back when was valid in God’s eyes, and, my husband feels the same way. So now, if the annulment is granted, and I suspect it will be, were we married in college, or by the j.p. for purposes of a radical sanation - which I just read about for the first time, today. Convalidation does not feel appropriate to me. I just want to tell the world that our love for each other was always right; another reason being as I’ve always felt and seemed to be treated as a ‘lesser’ person around his family though they knew me earlier. Yes, I’ve been hurting a long time. Appreciate your reading this. Would appreciate a “valid” answer…
 
Singinbeauty said:
I have been involved in a discussion on another set of boards about this and I would like to get your opinion on it. Here is the OP in this other forum…

I also want to take this one step further…

What do you think?
Click to expand...
Hi SB,

This kinda brings up an interesting point. Since n-Cs do not generally consider Matrimony to be a sacrament, I wonder about that.

I think I like the sacramental aspect better than what they re talking about.

Granted, the sacrament is ministered to the couple by each other with the priest there as a witness for the Church, but it just doesn’t seem right to do it the way they are talking about.
 
I don’t understand the reply. Both of us are Catholic, baptized, confirmed. I have always hung my belief on a verse in the Bible where it states whatever we ask in Jesus name, He will do; when two or more are gathered, He is in their midst. Advise. Thank you.
 
I think the OP’s question is an extremely interesting one, and I’ve always wondered how a *sola scriptura *person would answer it.

Marriage is mentioned many times in the Bible, but so far nobody has quoted a verse in which the Bible says exactly what constitutes a marriage. The only Biblical mention I’ve seen in this thread is Romans 13, by which I assume that poster meant Romans 13:1–“Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.”

The problem with this, however, is that it opens up a can of worms. Different secular authorities differ about what constitutes a marriage. For example, different countries have different age requirements. In some Muslim countries, a man is allowed more than one wife. I read somewhere that in Germany it used to be the case that the bride and groom needed parental approval, regardless of their age.

It seems to me the question can be answered only by an extra-Biblical tradition–or can someone out there quote me a Bible verse?
 
I’m a bit ovewhelmed by the reply, and do appreciate it. I am new to the forum, and not the most well versed Catholic. I guess I’m looking for validation, which inevitably may never come from the Catholic church, but I was so hoping someone might still give a sanction, somehow, somewhere from my own faith. Before coming to the forum, I had never heard of radical sanaction, which, I hope, will make me feel somewhat better. If this is granted, is convalidation possible, or is there still some way to have a formal blessing with family and friends? I guess I just want the world to know that our marriage was right from the beginning, and I’m trying to eleviate the hurt I feel about it. Thank you.
 
forgetmenot, I don’t think anyone here can answer your question about your own marital situation. You would need to discuss this in detail with a priest to determine how your marriage might now be validated. Just lay out the situation and see where you go from there.

Your experience does suggest to me that marriage is by nature intended to be a public commitment, not merely a private commitment. The reason is that any marriage affects many more people than just the couple involved. It affects families, friends, and how the couple relates to society at large, provides legal standing, and is of course quite meaningful to future children.
 
Thank you, JimG -
We will be discussing this with a priest, in the future. I was looking for a heads up. Ultimately, I was young when the ‘vow’ occurred, and it always held a deep meaning to both of us. As an adult, I can understand where you speak from re: public vs private, as a youth in a situation and from a sentimentalist point of view, I hope you can understand from where I speak. I thank you, and will keep everyone abreast, but I’m sure this will take time to iron out. Heck, I’ve already waited over 30 yrs! Thank you.:o
 
Ignatius said:
Is shacking up OK with God? What do you think?
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I don’t think that’s relevant to the OP’s intent, and I know her well enough to know that her answer will be the same as ours… a resounding “NO!”
 
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