When Around Toxic People You Can't Avoid

[pensmama87]

I have posted a few times about a former friend of mine. We had a falling out last year - I joked to my husband that she “dumped me” and that’s basically what it felt like. I was just left - suddenly all contact ceased. It took me a while to figure it out, but once I did, I asked someone else (discreetly) about what was going on and suddenly I got a floodgate of harassing emails, texts, “anonymous” blog comments asserting all kinds of ridiculous and untrue behavior about me. This went on for a while (almost six months) until I figured out how to block her from most things. I confided in a select few friends who I could trust to not gossip, and I learned that this has been a cycle she’s repeated with many other people over the years.

Thankfully she also moved, so I was spared from the prospect of accidentally running into her. But on a couple of occasions we’ve seen each other at things for mutual friends. This past weekend I saw her - and had to sit with her - at a baby shower for a mutual friend. We did not speak to each other, which I expected, but she made several veiled comments about me to other people seated with us (only I would have known they were directed at me, unless she’s told other people about what happened. I have never told anyone except those select few I went to for advice, and none of them were present).

I was determined to make the best of it, but by the end of it I was shaking and so angry I could barely speak. I lit out of there as fast as humanly possible and cried in the car the whole way home. Not only about what she said about me and her general unkind and rude behavior, but that she is (apparently) not suffering or miserable the way I am, and I want her to be (which is horrible, but it’s true). The group of friends we have in common I introduced her to, and I feel like I’ve been getting pushed out while she gets to keep on doing her thing and having everyone think she’s the best. I got irritated several times because she was praised for her parenting know-how and other things and I was the one who told her about those things. These feelings aren’t very pretty, but they’re there, and I don’t know what to do with them. I pray for them to go away but I don’t feel very sincere when I’m praying for it.

I don’t want to give up this group of friends because they mean a lot to me, but it also means I’m going to have to deal with this person. I feel like that would make her “win” (also juvenile), but I’ve done nothing wrong here. I should be able to keep my friends and not worry about if she’s going to be there. I’m not going to gossip about what happened because I feel like that would be mean, but that also means that she (in a way) controls the narrative about what happened - I know she’s not averse to spreading rumors and lies about people to get her way. I also feel like it’s only a matter of time before she does this to one of them, but it’s not exactly the kind of thing you’d wish on someone - it stinks to find out you’ve been used for years by someone who claimed to be your best friend.

Any advice?

 

[holyrood]

I feel in the same position with my extended family. They themselves have done nothing wrong. But because they hear the things my immediate family say about me, their behavior seems to me to be changing, becoming ‘courteous’ but not so friendly. I’m not going to get into he said she said with them. They don’t ask. I know if I say anything, they’ll get uncomfortable and inform me they ‘don’t want to take sides.’

I have simply quit going to family gatherings. I’ve taken the attitude that if they can’t see who I really am based on my behavior, but are swayed by family gossip, then maybe I’m not losing too much.

I don’t know how different it might be with friends, with whom perhaps you were close.

 

[tawny]

Pray for them.

 

[EasterJoy]

My advice is to keep your head high and to avoid of saying a bad word about her except, “Well, you may find that there are things Sally says that need to be taken with a grain of salt. What do I mean by that? I mean you should keep your eyes open and draw your own conclusions.” If they press, say “that is all I am going to say, that you should draw your own conclusions.” I say this because she is a real danger to others. A small heads-up to them, one that does not harm her reputation but lets them know that it is worthwhile to keep their eyes open, is a good thing. If she amends and does them no harm, then that is great, but they deserve to know she has failed to win your trust. There is no falsehood in giving that impression, and no unnecessary harm done to her.

This is the kind of person that people eventually pick up on. They may tolerate her in the social circle (because no one wants the hassle of being a “baddie” on her radar), but they do learn to take what she says with a grain of salt and that discretion, unfailing graciousness, and strict adherence to the truth are not her long suits.

Give up on her being as miserable as you feel. First off, she may be one of those individuals who is so short on the gift of emotional empathy that she is not even *capable *of feeling the pain you are feeling. Secondly, when you wish ill on someone you cannot forgive, it really does not feel good when ill befalls them. Let the Lord judge them, and then you can accept the consequences they get as being natural, and will not feel bad about them.

Honestly, I would not refrain from speaking to her. Look at St. Paul’s advice:
Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good; love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor. Do not grow slack in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality. Bless those who persecute [you], bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation. Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible, on your part, live at peace with all. Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good. Rom. 12:9-12

Note what he points out: When you are good to people who are nasty to you, it drives them nuts!! More to the point, when they badmouth you to others, the first thought that springs to mind is, “It’s funny, but she never says a bad word about you.” Charm is a window-dressing, but goodness is a real commodity, a thing that can’t be faked in the long run. (If the long run is the Final Judgment, then you will have none of your reward reduced by having already received the praise of your fellow men, and will receive all your reward from the generous hand of God.)

I would not disclose myself to her or those who pass information on to her (knowingly or not), though, and when given a chance to be around her, I would give it a pass. People like that are capable of cutting their noses off to spite their faces. The less time you spend around people you cannot trust, around people who are covertly aggressive, the better. (They don’t just make you feel paranoid, after all, since she’s done real harm, but let us face it: the paranoia that comes from covert aggression is the gift that keeps on giving. Even if she never says another bad word about you, you will always wonder what she is up to…)

 

[EasterJoy]

Here is a little story from “Story of a Soul,” Chapter 9, by St Thérèse of Lisieux. This is not meant to punish you–which of us are so good as this great saint now?–but to learn the ways she found opportunities to grow in virtue in whatever treatment she got from others. Since you are not hidden away in a place without enemies, you have both more hazards to your peace, but perhaps also opportunities to advance that a cloistered Carmelite does not usually have:

*O my Jesus! Thou dost never ask what is impossible; Thou knowest better than I, how frail and imperfect I am, and Thou knowest that I shall never love my Sisters as Thou hast loved them, unless within me Thou lovest them, dear Lord! It is because Thou dost desire to grant me this grace that Thou hast given a New Commandment. Oh how I love it, since I am assured thereby that it is Thy Will to love in me all those Thou dost bid me love! Yes, I know when I show charity to others, it is simply Jesus acting in me, and the more closely I am united to Him, the more dearly I love my Sisters. If I wish to increase this love in my heart, and the devil tries to bring before me the defects of a Sister, I hasten to look for her virtues, her good motives; I call to mind that though I may have seen her fall once, no doubt she has gained many victories over herself, which in her humility she conceals. It is even possible that what seems to me a fault, may very likely, on account of her good intention, be an act of virtue. I have no difficulty in persuading myself of this, because I have had the same experience. One day, during recreation, the portress came to ask for a Sister to help her. I had a childish longing to do this work, and it happened the choice fell upon me. I therefore began to fold up our needlework, but so slowly that my neighbor, who I knew would like to take my place, was ready before me. The Sister who had asked for help, seeing how deliberate I was, said laughingly: I thought you would not add this pearl to your crown, you are so extremely slow, and all the Community thought I had yielded to natural reluctance. I cannot tell you what profit I derived from this incident, and it made me indulgent towards others. It still checks any feelings of vanity, when I am praised, for I reflect that since my small acts of virtue can be mistaken for imperfections, why should not my imperfections be mistaken for virtue? And I say with St. Paul: To me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man’s day. But neither do I judge myself. He that judges me is the Lord. (Cf. 1 Cor 4:3-4).

And it is the Lord, it is Jesus, Who is my judge. Therefore I will try always to think leniently of others, that He may judge me leniently, or rather not at all, since He says: Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. (Lk 6:37).

But returning to the Holy Gospel where Our Lord explains to me clearly in what His New Commandment consists, I read in St. Matthew: You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy: but I say unto you, Love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you. (Mt 5:43-44).

There are, of course, no enemies in the Carmel; but, after all, we have our natural likes and dislikes. We may feel drawn towards one Sister, and may be tempted to go a long way round to avoid meeting another. Well, Our Lord tells me that this is the Sister to love and pray for, even though her behavior may make me imagine she does not care for me. If you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? For sinners also love those that love them.’ And it is not enough to love, we must prove our love; naturally one likes to please a friend, but that is not charity, for sinners do the same.*

 

[mountee]

Wow, what a miserable experience, I am truly sorry for what you have tolerated so far. Frankly, I admire your approach and would urge you to continue to take the high road. I have to admit that having to be seated with her would ruin most occasions for me but just think of what you are showing to those who know what has gone on, an example of how a Christian treats those who have hurt them. You will never be sorry for your actions when you choose to treat someone like her with Christian love.

 

[gmx2014]

but that she is (apparently) not suffering or miserable the way I am

She’s suffering, and miserable, in a *worse *way, than you are.

This article seems to be about an intimate partner (“girlfriend”) but the tips are useful.

jenimawter.com/blog/2013/07/11/from-victim-to-victor-dealing-with-narcissistic-personality-disorder/

 

[EasterJoy]

She’s suffering, and miserable, in a *worse *way, than you are.

This article seems to be about an intimate partner (“girlfriend”) but the tips are useful.

jenimawter.com/blog/2013/07/11/from-victim-to-victor-dealing-with-narcissistic-personality-disorder/

Far more pathetic is not the same as far more miserable. It is very good to realize, though, that you never want to get into a spite contest with a person who has a personality disorder of any kind, nor even with someone who has the same symptoms for other reasons. You never want to make one into your personal reclamation project, either. If you try, you are in over your head. You are swimming in a riptide.

There are people who are, for objective purposes and at the present time, our enemies. St. Therese said there were none in her convent, but most people will run into one, if they live in the world. Sometimes, we even find enemies within the Church. The Lord had an enemy within the Twelve, and the saints had enemies, too. Sometimes, those enemies are even future saints. It serves us well, however, to consider that people with personality disorders are in a class all by themselves with regards to the damage they can do to anyone in their orbit. It is like the damage somebody with diabetic neuropathy can do to their own feet. By that, I mean I am not talking about how culpable they are. We can’t know that. It is about the amount of harm any person can do when there is no feedback loop by which that person can feel the pain he or she is causing someone else. That is a very special danger, and one that should not be ignored as if the situation were normal. Be wary of that person, always. Love them, do not let them run your life or change your fidelity to what is yours to do, but do not ignore the danger they pose.

 

[pensmama87]

Thanks all for your replies so far.

This past weekend, I kind of took the cue from her that we were not speaking. I saw her there at the table as I approached as well as a few others that I knew, and greeted everyone. She turned her head away from me. So, I took that as a sign that she didn’t want me to address her and so I did not. I did take part in conversations going on with the whole table, but didn’t purposefully address her at any point. That is not my preference, though, and it did make me very uncomfortable. Perhaps next time I see her, I will actually say, “How are you? How is [husband name], [daughter name]?” That would be a natural thing for me to do. It feels very unnatural for me to not address someone in my presence. EasterJoy, thanks for including that advice from St. Paul. I will keep that in mind for sure.

This person, is, unfortunately, a person that I would classify as an enemy. Our situation is not a mere misunderstanding, personality conflict, etc. I wasn’t very aware of this when we were friends, but she actively works to sabotage people and their reputations (the inklings I had of this I disregarded as her simply having a personality that tended toward “drama”). I can try to work on loving her as part of my Christian duty, but this not the kind of person I am ever going to open myself to for more hurting. I could foresee her trying to “patch things up” if she ever determined I could be useful to her again - but right now I am not, except that I am a person she has to deal with seeing every now and again, too.

Actually, this reminded me of a situation with a (randomly assigned) roommate in college, who was fond of badmouthing me. She did this once to other girls who lived in our hall, talking about what a loud, annoying roommate I was (I once made the error of working on a paper at 10am on a Saturday morning, when she was very hungover.) The other girls told me they couldn’t believe in a million years anything that she said because I was obviously quiet, neat, and attended to my studies. So, if anything is being spread about me by this person now, I have my record of not being a crazy person to rely on, and I don’t have to pretend I am anyone different than who I have always been.

I did start a novena today to Our Lady, Undoer of Knots to help me with all these crazy feelings I’m having, and to pray for healing on my part and this person’s part. I am already feeling a bit more peaceful.

Any other suggestions are very welcome. I’m sure I’m not the only person on CAF (in fact, I know I’m not!) who has had to deal with a “frenemy” or person they’d rather avoid seeing, but can’t, for whatever reason.

 

[Marie5890]

Thats happened to me too, with my brother and his wife. They have disowned me.

The only way I can deal with in a compassionate way is to remember that there are legitimate mental health issues going on, and that is not their fault. Mental illness is a medical condition. So I pray for them.

And I leave them and the rest of the toxicity that comes from it all to the Mercy of God.

Christ Himself had to deal with toxic people a lot. So He and I chat about it when need be.

I will add a bit of advice that someone gave me

" try not to let the hatred and anger planes land in your head " ~~~We are the only ones that get hurt by such…It takes some conscience effort, but it’s worth it.

 

[EasterJoy]

… I saw her there at the table as I approached as well as a few others that I knew, and greeted everyone. She turned her head away from me. So, I took that as a sign that she didn’t want me to address her and so I did not. I did take part in conversations going on with the whole table, but didn’t purposefully address her at any point…

What she was doing counts as covert aggression. By all means, next time talk to her at least briefly when you are offering general greetings to the group, as if nothing were amiss. Do not force anything, pass over her failure to respond without comment or reaction, but just offer the basics that good manners ask, as if you were the Queen and the cameras were rolling. Grace points for you, burning coals on her head.

This person, is, unfortunately, a person that I would classify as an enemy. Our situation is not a mere misunderstanding, personality conflict, etc. I wasn’t very aware of this when we were friends, but she actively works to sabotage people and their reputations (the inklings I had of this I disregarded as her simply having a personality that tended toward “drama”). I can try to work on loving her as part of my Christian duty, but this not the kind of person I am ever going to open myself to for more hurting. I could foresee her trying to “patch things up” if she ever determined I could be useful to her again - but right now I am not, except that I am a person she has to deal with seeing every now and again, too.

Actually, this reminded me of a situation with a (randomly assigned) roommate in college, who was fond of badmouthing me. She did this once to other girls who lived in our hall, talking about what a loud, annoying roommate I was (I once made the error of working on a paper at 10am on a Saturday morning, when she was very hungover.) The other girls told me they couldn’t believe in a million years anything that she said because I was obviously quiet, neat, and attended to my studies. So, if anything is being spread about me by this person now, I have my record of not being a crazy person to rely on, and I don’t have to pretend I am anyone different than who I have always been.

I did start a novena today to Our Lady, Undoer of Knots to help me with all these crazy feelings I’m having, and to pray for healing on my part and this person’s part. I am already feeling a bit more peaceful.

Any other suggestions are very welcome. I’m sure I’m not the only person on CAF (in fact, I know I’m not!) who has had to deal with a “frenemy” or person they’d rather avoid seeing, but can’t, for whatever reason .

Our Lady was undoubtedly the victims of whisperers and the jealous. Certainly Our Lord was surrounded by people who were literally mortal enemies and yet gave him the appearance of their good regard, in order to stay “in” with everyone else. The court of Heaven knows what you are going through, so you’ll not find a better avenue for support and sanity than prayer.

 

[gmx2014]

Thats happened to me too, with my brother and his wife. They have disowned me.

The only way I can deal with in a compassionate way is to remember that there are legitimate mental health issues going on, and that is not their fault. Mental illness is a medical condition. So I pray for them.

No, it isn’t. So-called mental illness is, primarily, a brainwash and mind control. More often than not, behind so-called mental illness is abuse. Humanity has done an evil thing, in medicalizing human behavior, and the damaging effects of abuse (and neglect). The vast majority of people are brainwashed to believe in so-called mental illness. It truly is evil. Psychiatry is this world’s antichrist, it is the only entity on Earth that qualifies.

 

[gmx2014]

What she was doing counts as covert aggression. By all means, next time talk to her at least briefly when you are offering general greetings to the group, as if nothing were amiss. Do not force anything, pass over her failure to respond without comment or reaction, but just offer the basics that good manners ask, as if you were the Queen and the cameras were rolling. Grace points for you, burning coals on her head.

Gee, it’s not a competition.

If she speaks to the woman, and if the woman decides to ignore her, guess who is going to burn?

 

[EasterJoy]

No, it isn’t. So-called mental illness is, primarily, a brainwash and mind control. More often than not, behind so-called mental illness is abuse. Humanity has done an evil thing, in medicalizing human behavior, and the damaging effects of abuse (and neglect). The vast majority of people are brainwashed to believe in so-called mental illness. It truly is evil. Psychiatry is this world’s antichrist, it is the only entity on Earth that qualifies.

That’s an extreme way too put it, especially the part about psychiatry being the earth’s only Antichrist. Wow. Very strong rhetoric, that.

Still, the point is well-taken: that is, that people who have the intellectual capacity to know that something is wrong and have the ability to choose the good and yet opt to do something else may be limited in how much their temperament or habitual lack of virtue will excuse them.

Certainly none of us who have been diagnosed with a mental illness, even a serious one, ought to take that as carte blanche to act as we please. Even the most secular person can see that this is a ticket to misery for everyone involved. We can’t judge who is and is not doing their best, but we do have to tell the truth that even true mental illness rarely makes a person insane with regards to social capacity. Thinking people who do not find it easy to do the right thing are excused from trying to do it is to believe a dangerous lie, and probably does make many a soul vulnerable to deception by the evil one.

Nevertheless, there are personality disorders that are quite real, and I wouldn’t wish them on an enemy. Some people appear to have a biological predisposition to empathy, the genetic basis is strong (although it doesn’t appear so strong as to be strictly causative) and show a very different brain circuitry with regards to emotionally connecting to others. It’s like they are empathy-blind. They can learn to act rightly, but they do not have the inner emotional support for doing it that others typically have. If their only moral training is “how would you like it if someone did that to you?” instead of “no one will have you as an associate if you act like that,” they’re probably going to grow to be self-serving monsters.

Some silly psychologists have speculated that there is a survival advantage to a tribe having a resident psychopath or sociopath, but as nearly as I can tell the peoples that still live in close-knit groups that need to rely on each other every day don’t see it that way. They sometimes see to it that the resident sociopath has an unfortunate hunting accident before he has a chance to procreate with someone else’s wife.

 

[gmx2014]

That’s an extreme way too put it, especially the part about psychiatry being the earth’s only Antichrist. Wow. Very strong rhetoric, that.

Rhetoric? I don’t think so.

Let anyone on Earth come forward, with authority, and state the antichrist. Unless the people of the world want to say, in unison, that there is “no such thing”. But there quite is such a thing, and it is none other than psychiatry. It isn’t like it will be announced in the headline news, and everybody will get the memo. It isn’t going to be taught in grade school, public or private. It won’t be taught in universities, either.

 

[glendab]

Misery loves company and she can’t take you anywhere you don’t want to go.

If I allow my personal happiness to depend on the actions and reactions of others, then I set myself up for some rather un-happy days.

Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be. It really is a choice.

I don’t know what made your friend so vindictive, but it was probably someone else hurting her. Hurt people hurt people. When someone lashes out at me, I need to turn the other cheek and let the healing begin with me. If your relationship is so strained that it causes you to shed tears all the way home, then perhaps you are right to seek friendship elsewhere. Relieve yourself of the un-knowing by approaching each of the gals in your circle and find out which ones will remain your friends if you divulge to them separately what you are suffering at the hands of this other gal. It will hurt probably, but you will separate out those who are your true friends and those who are superficial. Then you’ll be free to focus on developing honest relations with those who remain your friends in spite of the hard time this one gal gives.

And above all pray for her. If it is true that she’s floated in and out of the lives of others and left a bloody trail behind, then you aren’t alone in your feelings for her. Pray.

Glenda

 

[EasterJoy]

Rhetoric? I don’t think so.

Let anyone on Earth come forward, with authority, and state the antichrist. Unless the people of the world want to say, in unison, that there is “no such thing”. But there quite is such a thing, and it is none other than psychiatry. It isn’t like it will be announced in the headline news, and everybody will get the memo. It isn’t going to be taught in grade school, public or private. It won’t be taught in universities, either.

 

[embear]

Something like this has happened to me before, though not quite as bad. This is what I’ve learned:

You can’t get rid of people or end relationships, no matter how awful they are. Relationships change but they don’t end. That person will forever be a part of your life, even if it is just in your memory. So it’s important to make peace with it. Furthermore, every person in your life is there for a reason. God created them and put them there. They serve a function whether it is to support you, offer guidance or criticism, or to teach you a lesson in patience or forgiveness or humility or any other virtue. Usually, difficult people (I don’t like the word toxic to describe a person) are there to teach us about ourselves and our weaknesses. A weak person will walk away from the opportunity to learn a difficult lesson, especially one which may cause them to suffer. But suffering is good, it humbles us. It also makes us stronger. Returning evil for evil is not the answer, nor is abandoning your life and other friends because interactions with a difficult person are involved. Pray not just for her but for yourself, that God give you the wisdom to recognize your weaknesses and the virtue to improve them.

 

[EasterJoy]

Something like this has happened to me before, though not quite as bad. This is what I’ve learned:

You can’t get rid of people or end relationships, no matter how awful they are. Relationships change but they don’t end. That person will forever be a part of your life, even if it is just in your memory. So it’s important to make peace with it. Furthermore, every person in your life is there for a reason. God created them and put them there. They serve a function whether it is to support you, offer guidance or criticism, or to teach you a lesson in patience or forgiveness or humility or any other virtue. Usually, difficult people (I don’t like the word toxic to describe a person) are there to teach us about ourselves and our weaknesses. A weak person will walk away from the opportunity to learn a difficult lesson, especially one which may cause them to suffer. But suffering is good, it humbles us. It also makes us stronger. Returning evil for evil is not the answer, nor is abandoning your life and other friends because interactions with a difficult person are involved. Pray not just for her but for yourself, that God give you the wisdom to recognize your weaknesses and the virtue to improve them.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, because sometimes when someone presses us to go a mile, we go two. Sometimes, when we are struck in the cheek, we turn and offer the other. In this way, we learn love that is not a quid pro quo.

No, in the sense that “reason” means we are supposed to suffer what our enemies have in mind for us. Otherwise, the reason that Herod was in the life of the Holy Family was apparently to encourage them to move to Egypt. Some people “seek our life”, and it is OK to flee from them.

 

[embear]

Well, yes and no.

Yes, because sometimes when someone presses us to go a mile, we go two. Sometimes, when we are struck in the cheek, we turn and offer the other. In this way, we learn love that is not a quid pro quo.

No, in the sense that “reason” means we are supposed to suffer what our enemies have in mind for us. Otherwise, the reason that Herod was in the life of the Holy Family was apparently to encourage them to move to Egypt. Some people “seek our life”, and it is OK to flee from them.

Yeah but I’m assuming each situation would be evaluated with prudence. I don’t think the woman in question is trying to kill OP. She used to be a friend and they had a falling out. If you are being abused or threatened bodily harm, by all means, remove yourself from danger. Otherwise we should bear the faults and wrongs of others with patience (as OP seems to have done thus far) and forgive them 7 times 70. God has to bear all the world’s evils and still offers us forgiveness, still loves us perfectly. Knowing this makes the thought of suffering another’s vices seem like such a small feat.