When Christians die

[Zatzat]

Anecdotally I’ve personally seen this phenomena many times in my life and I’ve come across it more times than I can count in the news, classifieds, facebook etc…

Why is that when Christians die, many of those Christian friends and family members are compelled to say such things as;

’ Now we have an angel looking over us’

’ God has another angel in heaven or God needed a new angel’

…and many, many other comments in relation to the deceased having become an angel once they died.

The question I have is, such a belief isn’t at all compatible with Christianity, as Christianity doesn’t proclaim that people become angels when they die.

Why don’t fellow Christians ever correct people regarding their ignorant belief in relation to their faith system and their belief that souls become angels?

It’s puzzling that fellow Christians will allow their brethren to believe that souls turn into angels when a person dies.

Now, more than the angel comment, I’ve heard even more, comments of assurance that their friend or loved one is now in heaven. How on earth could they possibly know that? I’ve not once in my life heard someone say ’ yep, he’s in hell now’.

Puzzling, fellow Christians never correct them and remind them, ’ we can’t know the state of their soul when they died, so we haven’t any idea where they’ve gone’.

 

[revert_jen]

I think the answer may be that when people are grieving, it is not the best time to have a theological discussion. People mean to be kind, and you are certainly correct that people don’t turn into angels, and we don’t know the state of anyone’s soul after death (unless they have been canonized). I think it’s just that the situation is wrong to correct people.

–Jen

 

[ljubim]

I know!! As if people can change into angels when they die (absolutely impossible )

I’m with Jen though, if your loved one has just died a comment could easily be taken the wrong way.

 

[Zatzat]

I’ve got the impression you know what I’m talking about and I do agree with you…

The question remains, why do so many Christians believe that everyone goes to heaven and why do so many believe that their loved ones turn into angels?

Before people die, why aren’t their brother and sister Christians correcting them as to the reality of their faith?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

What do you say to them? “Let’s be honest here, he’s going to Hell. No hope for him. He refuses to go to Reconciliation.” How will that make anybody feel better?

As for the angel thing, it’s just that it’s a very comforting thought. True? No. But I know I wouldn’t have the heart to tell that to grieving people. Probably makes me a bad person, but it’s true.

 

[ljubim]

I’ve got the impression you know what I’m talking about and I do agree with you…

The question remains, why do so many Christians believe that everyone goes to heaven and why do so many believe that their loved ones turn into angels?

Before people die, why aren’t their brother and sister Christians correcting them as to the reality of their faith?

So many people belittle the existence of hell these days, it’s astounding! Some Catholics don’t even care about going to confession often, or keeping a good relationship with God. This happens all their lives, and because of the minimum Sunday obligation, people think they’re good with God because they act all righteous.

Lots of sinful politicians end up having funeral Masses too, like that Kennedy. We don’t accept the reality of hell any more - surely there aren’t consequences to our actions!! Notice the looks people will give you if you start talking about demons or the devil. Oh, it’s just a rhetorical device used to relate to the Jews way back when, they will say. It all stems from a refusal to accept ALL of Our Lord’s teachings - once one thing falls apart, all of them do. People need our prayers so badly

 

[Zatzat]

What do you say to them? “Let’s be honest here, he’s going to Hell. No hope for him. He refuses to go to Reconciliation.” How will that make anybody feel better?

So it’s not about the truth, it’s about feeling good by propagating wishful thinking?

As for the angel thing, it’s just that it’s a very comforting thought. True? No. But I know I wouldn’t have the heart to tell that to grieving people. Probably makes me a bad person, but it’s true.

It’s comforting to believe a falsehood about a faith system?

 

[Zatzat]

So many people belittle the existence of hell these days, it’s astounding! Some Catholics don’t even care about going to confession often, or keeping a good relationship with God. This happens all their lives, and because of the minimum Sunday obligation, people think they’re good with God because they act all righteous.

Lots of sinful politicians end up having funeral Masses too, like that Kennedy. We don’t accept the reality of hell any more - surely there aren’t consequences to our actions!! Notice the looks people will give you if you start talking about demons or the devil. Oh, it’s just a rhetorical device used to relate to the Jews way back when, they will say. It all stems from a refusal to accept ALL of Our Lord’s teachings - once one thing falls apart, all of them do. People need our prayers so badly

I thought your Pope clearly said that Hell isn’t a physical place of pain, suffering and torture, but just being separated from God.

 

[Desertsailor]

I thought your Pope clearly said that Hell isn’t a physical place of pain, suffering and torture, but just being separated from God.

That’s what being separated from God is, pain, suffering and torture. What does your Martin Luther say?

 

[Zooey]

I think the answer may be that when people are grieving, it is not the best time to have a theological discussion. People mean to be kind, and you are certainly correct that people don’t turn into angels, and we don’t know the state of anyone’s soul after death (unless they have been canonized). I think it’s just that the situation is wrong to correct people.

–Jen

This.

 

[revert_jen]

So it’s not about the truth, it’s about feeling good by propagating wishful thinking?

It’s comforting to believe a falsehood about a faith system?

I’m not saying that the error shouldn’t be corrected, but that when a loved one has recently died is frequently the wrong time for it.

As for the angels thing, it is possible that it is just a careless manner of speaking, too. Not in all cases certainly, but in some cases it can be that the souls of the departed (especially if they are children or very elderly) are referred to as “angels” in much the same way that the same people might have been referred to as “angels” when still alive.

As for the destination of souls, there is no good purpose served by assuming any individual who has died is in Hell. We can’t possibly know for sure, and we have no business judging. What’s much more important is for priests to make clear on a regular basis that Hell is real, and that some souls (although we can’t know which ones) are there.

For most protestants, if it is not assumed that the soul is in Hell, then Heaven is the only other option, since they don’t believe in Purgatory. So it makes sense for them to assume that the soul is in Heaven.

I agree that it is really unfortunate when Catholics make the assumption that a loved one is not in Purgatory, because that might cause them not to pray for them.

I’m afraid that in some cases, people will say “I’m sure your dear so-and-so is in Heaven now,” just because it is nice, not because they really believe it. OTOH, there are people who really seem to believe that Hell has a poulation of about four (Judas, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot or Nero or some politician the person disagreed with). Since we can’t actually know the population of Hell, we can’t directly contradict that, all we can say is that it is extremely unlikely.

–Jen

 

[Zatzat]

That’s what being separated from God is, pain, suffering and torture. What does your Martin Luther say?

My Martin Luther? I’m what you would call a non-believer.

 

[ljubim]

I thought your Pope clearly said that Hell isn’t a physical place of pain, suffering and torture, but just being separated from God.

Not a PHYSICAL place, but definitely separated from God and definitely full of suffering.

 

[VociMike]

The question remains, why do so many Christians believe that everyone goes to heaven and why do so many believe that their loved ones turn into angels?

Before people die, why aren’t their brother and sister Christians correcting them as to the reality of their faith?

Nobody can know the eternal fate of another (except in the rare cases where it is revealed by God to his Church). But since we know that “by their fruits you shall know them,” we can be confident in some cases, at least, that the person has chosen God and accepted his salvation. Not assured, but confident.

As to the angel thing, I doubt many Christians, when pushed on the subject, think that those humans who go to heaven become angels - that is, the angels of scripture. It may just be a sloppy shorthand for “one who dwells in heaven.”

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Anecdotally I’ve personally seen this phenomena many times in my life and I’ve come across it more times than I can count in the news, classifieds, facebook etc…

Why is that when Christians die, many of those Christian friends and family members are compelled to say such things as;

’ Now we have an angel looking over us’

’ God has another angel in heaven or God needed a new angel’

…and many, many other comments in relation to the deceased having become an angel once they died.

The question I have is, such a belief isn’t at all compatible with Christianity, as Christianity doesn’t proclaim that people become angels when they die.

Why don’t fellow Christians ever correct people regarding their ignorant belief in relation to their faith system and their belief that souls become angels?

It’s puzzling that fellow Christians will allow their brethren to believe that souls turn into angels when a person dies.

Now, more than the angel comment, I’ve heard even more, comments of assurance that their friend or loved one is now in heaven. How on earth could they possibly know that? I’ve not once in my life heard someone say ’ yep, he’s in hell now’.

Puzzling, fellow Christians never correct them and remind them, ’ we can’t know the state of their soul when they died, so we haven’t any idea where they’ve gone’.

As others have pointed out, a funeral or wake is not the best time to engage in theological debate, or speculation about the fate of the person. For myself, I personally believe my father is in Hell, my sister in Purgatory, and I’m not sure about my mother. I suspect Purgatory for her. Those who knew my mother would all insist she’s in heaven, as she was basically a good person who suffered quite a lot, but with my understanding of Christian doctrine, and her lack of commitment to a church for years, I have my concerns.

On the other hand, my old Protestant pastor once said to me that he thought God was sick and tired of condemning Australians, and that He might give us a revival so He didn’t have to keep doing so. He also commented that he thought Catholics “soft pedal judgment”.

I quite often have my doubts as to where somebody has gone, but I’m not going to say so to a grieving relative. Recently we had the fiasco over here of a hit man being murdered in jail. At his subsequent funeral he was buried in a gold plated coffin. I doubt that did him much good in the spiritual sense. A few years ago a media mogul died, and the wake was one big egotistical party as far as I could see. Again I doubt it did him much good in the spiritual sense.

We don’t know. I think sometimes we can take an educated guess. But when it comes to grieving relatives, we need to be a bit diplomatic. I’ve got no doubt that pastors and priests, when they are presiding at funerals, and while they are trying their best to be encouraging to the mourners, have their own opinion on where the deceased has gone, but cannot really say so.

 

[AntiTheist]

Why don’t fellow Christians ever correct people regarding their ignorant belief in relation to their faith system and their belief that souls become angels?

Because it’s grossly inappropriate to quibble over metaphysical trivia when someone is grieving.

It’s puzzling that fellow Christians will allow their brethren to believe that souls turn into angels when a person dies.

It’s not puzzling at all. It would be far more puzzling if people acted like robots and mechanically corrected one another, regardless of their emotional state.

Now, more than the angel comment, I’ve heard even more, comments of assurance that their friend or loved one is now in heaven. How on earth could they possibly know that? I’ve not once in my life heard someone say ’ yep, he’s in hell now’.

George Carlin in his last show touches on this: “How do we know that he’s in heaven? Maybe he’s in hell…screaming up at us?”

 

[revert_jen]

Nobody can know the eternal fate of another (except in the rare cases where it is revealed by God to his Church). But since we know that “by their fruits you shall know them,” we can be confident in some cases, at least, that the person has chosen God and accepted his salvation. Not assured, but confident.

True, but I think (as a Catholic) they are still more likely to be in Purgatory for a while than they are to go straight to Heaven. And if talking about them as if they are already in Heaven means people pray for their souls less, then we are doing them material harm by assuming they’re in heaven.

–Jen

 

[rwoehmke]

The question remains, why do so many Christians believe that everyone goes to heaven and why do so many believe that their loved ones turn into angels?

Before people die, why aren’t their brother and sister Christians correcting them as to the reality of their faith?

I don’t think that people think generally that everyone goes to heaven. It is usually said only of those who are close to them. It is a way of comforting themselves in their pain and feelings of loss.

I have heard the angel comment made, but have have always thought it as more or less a figure of speech that no one actually believed, hence why correct it. I don’t know maybe there are those who actually believe it. The concept has actually been around a long time in cartoons depicting heaven, people on clouds with wings and harps.

 

[Zatzat]

I have heard the angel comment made, but have have always thought it as more or less a figure of speech that no one actually believed, hence why correct it. I don’t know maybe there are those who actually believe it. The concept has actually been around a long time in cartoons depicting heaven, people on clouds with wings and harps.

I suppose your right, it shows how seriously the average person takes their faith…not very.

 

[VociMike]

I suppose your right, it shows how seriously the average person takes their faith…not very.

If I were genuinely curious as to how seriously the average person takes their faith, I think I would seek more substantial data. But that’s just me.