When Church teaching and secular law clash

[Jeremiah1278]

Isn’t the answer the same, if there isn’t enough people participating in the democratic process that follow the Catholic faith (or enough people that are Catholic) then laws aren’t going to reflect the Catholic opinion. Isn’t it logical to focus on the people rather than the politics, as people drive political change not groups which don’t have the support at the polls?

Actually, yes: the answer would be the same. But not the answer you are advocating. No matter where the popular support is for, say, abortion, Catholics should behave as Catholics in civics. We are to value life so much that we are willing to fight for it in civics and to encourage non-Catholics to also value life. The worst thing that could possibly happen is that we get no laws changed and Christians all over the country carry the torch of life for a continuing culture of death.

How would a Catholic focus on people rather than politics? I agree we should focus on people, but I don’t think we are called to do that to the exclusion of participating in civics. How would your version of American Catholic political discourse change? I’m imagining in your world: Catholics stop protesting abortion, nobody is publicly advocating for the pro-life position in a way that demonstrates the severity of the injustice, and we work on just converting non-Catholic Americans—and once converted, hit them with the “I know you think life is great right now, but America is going to Hell in a handbasket” talk.

I think you are right, that the public discourse would become more friendly, but at what cost?

 

[essie7777]

Actually, yes: the answer would be the same. But not the answer you are advocating. No matter where the popular support is for, say, abortion, Catholics should behave as Catholics in civics. We are to value life so much that we are willing to fight for it in civics and to encourage non-Catholics to also value life. The worst thing that could possibly happen is that we get no laws changed and Christians all over the country carry the torch of life for a continuing culture of death.

How would a Catholic focus on people rather than politics? I agree we should focus on people, but I don’t think we are called to do that to the exclusion of participating in civics. How would your version of American Catholic political discourse change? I’m imagining in your world: Catholics stop protesting abortion, nobody is publicly advocating for the pro-life position in a way that demonstrates the severity of the injustice, and we work on just converting non-Catholic Americans—and once converted, hit them with the “I know you think life is great right now, but America is going to Hell in a handbasket” talk.

I think you are right, that the public discourse would become more friendly, but at what cost?

I agree, i am not advocating that Catholics stop being involved in civics as you coined it.

Ironically my Church group was talking about this today, how to affect change and be proactive as well as make headway on certain issues.

One of our group commented that when Catholicism comes up in conversation in mixed faith groups, the emphasis always centers on a “cause” (please don’t interpret that as derogatory its not meant that way) and predominately our methods become the focus of conversation rather than the message.

This person pointed out that the Catholic Church works very hard at continued education about our complete faith structure and beliefs within its own ranks, but is very poor in communicating our beliefs to non-Catholics.

Their point being that sometimes we lose the opportunity to bring people to the love and grace of God by not communicating the full hope and salvation humanity can gain through a profound and meaningful relationship with God, They suggested this makes it harder to be effective on the “issue” points, as one single point about our moral beliefs does not demonstrate the full picture of our faith. that it’s totality is stronger than one “issue”.

Its food for thought - and has simply been a theme in our Group for a few months.

 

[Jeremiah1278]

I agree, i am not advocating that Catholics stop being involved in civics as you coined it.

Ironically my Church group was talking about this today, how to affect change and be proactive as well as make headway on certain issues.

One of our group commented that when Catholicism comes up in conversation in mixed faith groups, the emphasis always centers on a “cause” (please don’t interpret that as derogatory its not meant that way) and predominately our methods become the focus of conversation rather than the message.

This person pointed out that the Catholic Church works very hard at continued education about our complete faith structure and beliefs within its own ranks, but is very poor in communicating our beliefs to non-Catholics.

Their point being that sometimes we lose the opportunity to bring people to the love and grace of God by not communicating the full hope and salvation humanity can gain through a profound and meaningful relationship with God, They suggested this makes it harder to be effective on the “issue” points, as one single point about our moral beliefs does not demonstrate the full picture of our faith. that it’s totality is stronger than one “issue”.

Its food for thought - and has simply been a theme in our Group for a few months.

Agreed. Nice Church group you have there! I would say this is something I struggle with in my life: how to project my Catholicism in the best possible way for others.

Edited to add: One thing I learned from having strayed from the Church for half a decade or so is that it is very easy to disagree with the Catholic church. There’s this condescending edge to the communication of some believers who have a terrific grasp of their faith. The “obviousness” of the truth of their Catholicism seems to have created this hubris allowing them to view folks disagreeing with them on certain issues as either evil or stupid. When the communication comes from that place—as opposed to a mind that knows he too could very well be immoral/wrong/non-believing on this issue, but for the grace of God—the message often doesn’t live up to the beauty of the truth.

 

[Nate13]

Divorce --the number of states now with no fault divorce legislation is growing and this is definitely against what we believe as Catholics.

Getting a legal divorce is actually an viable option for Catholics. The sacrament is never dissolved but legally a divorce is allowed if it is necessary to get out of a really bad situation for either party where they should not be living in the same house. I think the culture of divorce, remarry, divorce remarry, repeat is the problem. I do not know how far the government’s hand reaches into promoting this, but that would be the problem.

 

[essie7777]

Agreed. Nice Church group you have there! I would say this is something I struggle with in my life: how to project my Catholicism in the best possible way for others.

Edited to add: One thing I learned from having strayed from the Church for half a decade or so is that it is very easy to disagree with the Catholic church. There’s this condescending edge to the communication of some believers who have a terrific grasp of their faith. The “obviousness” of the truth of their Catholicism seems to have created this hubris allowing them to view folks disagreeing with them on certain issues as either evil or stupid. When the communication comes from that place—as opposed to a mind that knows he too could very well be immoral/wrong/non-believing on this issue, but for the grace of God—the message often doesn’t live up to the beauty of the truth.

We are very lucky in our parish we have get groups that are well attended and like little families.

I am always amazed what people think they know about the Catholic faith. There definitely needs to be some serious thought put into a secular based marketing campaign somewhere – it can border on the ridiculous. My personal favorite we support the spread of AIDS!

Anyway, apologies i digress. Your description of how it can be made easier to disagree with the Catholic Church is so true.

It can certainly be difficult trying to find a way to demonstrate our beliefs and all. Sometimes though it’s pretty amazing how it can fall into place. I recently did a presentation project in my graduate studies and insisted that i wanted it to be on Catholicism – we were presenting on cultural impacts in therapeutic relationships. My group were not happy with the topic, content or anything really, least of all me.

But, by the time we had finished it they all commented that they had learnt a lot and were surprised by the full picture of Catholic faith and how we view life and morality. Don’t get me wrong they didn’t necessarily believe the same as me ( id discovered the other three members of my group were Baptists) but they listened. Our presentation turned into a full afternoon discussing Catholicism and a few of my classmates have borrowed my books -CCC, encyclicals, theology etc. and in the four months since i haven’t gone to a class without being asked a question, or asked where they can find more information.

I am by nature not the most outspoken person in a room, and like you find it difficult to to figure out how i can help spread my faith, i am not the most knowledgeable person on faith and spend a lot of time telling my classmates “i don’t know that but let me ask and get back to you”.

The point being that this was not an environment i expected to have this opportunity, and i find it amusing that my professors now blame me (with good humor) because when any of our discussions move to ethics or legal issues and this usually happens a lot as we are studying clinical psychology, there is always someone who asks - “well what if our client is Catholic, the law’s not following their beliefs?” - and it’s rarely even me who asks! LOL

Not bad going for my first foray into apologetic discussion!

 

[essie7777]

Getting a legal divorce is actually an viable option for Catholics. The sacrament is never dissolved but legally a divorce is allowed if it is necessary to get out of a really bad situation for either party where they should not be living in the same house. I think the culture of divorce, remarry, divorce remarry, repeat is the problem. I do not know how far the government’s hand reaches into promoting this, but that would be the problem.

The Catholic position on divorce is clear - it is grave offense against natural law. I agree and the Church is supportive of people who divorce through no fault of their own, but if we are honest that is rarely the most common reason for divorce. The no fault legal system allows someone to get a divorce basically with no right for the other party to appeal against it. It doesn’t consider the contract of marriage in the Catholic Church to hold any weight in secular law.

The most public example of this that springs to mind is Marie (Bai) Macfarlane. There is a lot of information on the web about her situation. The secular courts discounted her faith (and her husbands faith - he is a well known Catholic writer and apologist --supposedly!), their commitment and contract made in front of God was ignored and her marriage dissolved despite her protests.

This is not acceptable under Catholic teachings.

Although secular divorce is open to Catholics, as it is to anyone else, it is still a law that clashes with Church teachings, there are no conditions you can get a divorce just because you want it, hence the cycle you discussed it allows marriage to be seen as something where the participants can be as interchangeable as your car if the mood so strikes you!.