When did children become an inconveniece?

[gretahope]

Count on it

Rest assured I would have taken any monatary contributions from anyone to handle the expenses required with more children or a job offer of CEO for hubby with full benefits and bonuses. Didn’t see anyone coming forth to contribute.

Is it a sad state of affairs that it should come to this? Sure, however…a thriving child needs emotional and somewhat financially stable parents. Americans live in the “burbs” not on a farm. Farming is a very expensive undertaking now…more rules and regulations just to grow corn…never mind a full working farm.

I believe it is the “children” that are inconvenienced when their parents have no foresight into how much time, attention and emotion can be focused, one on one.

This is so true. I withstand a lot of criticism from my father. For one thing or another. He was a white male, worked hard, Air Force in Korea, MIT education and had the the “world on a platter” in the late 1950s, let me tell you. He doesn’t understand that in today’s world, you can’t just “decide” to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, get a good job, and have the “perfect” family of 4 children, like he wanted and did. (The perfect part: NOT) Nowadays for parents to just say "I think it’s God’s will for us to have lots of kids, not being a CEO, etc…and then wondering why there’s hunger, not enough $ to live on…
Different world.

 

[ac_claire]

I guess we are understanding “trust” differently. I am defining it as something that comes from the heart and is borne out in our behavior. I’m not sure that I agree that someone 100 years ago who grudgingly had a bunch of kids just because there was nothing they could do about it was “trusting God”. Sure, in their behavior they were obedient to Church teaching, but following the letter of the law doesn’t necessarily mean that one is following the spirit of the law and growing closer to Christ. I’m not sure if that’s what you mean, but to me it just smacks of pharisaism.

I think Pharisaism is more about hypocrisy. Simply being obedient, especially when it’s a sacrifice, is way underrated IMO. In the case of these hypothetical, historical families we’re talking about, it kind of says even more to me about the strength of their faith if they went ahead and had however many kids beyond what they would normally have chosen if they’d just used their own personal comfort, quality of life, etc. as an indicator of when to stop having kids. I’m not advocating for the “grit your teeth and follow the letter of the law” position, just saying I think it is underrated. It shows they feared God, and they believed the Church. This isn’t just a history thing either…I know some couples like this today. We’re not one of them, but I do admire their convictions and the fact that they practice what they preach. Most of them are poor and could contracept with nobody outside of the family being any wiser. (I’m on a tanget here though…this is sort of a separate observation from the rest of this conversation…)

I guess I’d need to do a study comparing Casti Connubii and the address to midwives and some other pre-Vatican II documents on birth control to sort of see what you’re saying. I don’t think that what the Church has taught on the matter has substantially changed, although it is clear that the language used to explain and promulgate Church teaching has changed (in almost every area, not just contraception/birth control). One of the positive legacies of Vatican II, IMO, has been a different approach to teaching moral theology to the faithful, one that explains the beauty and truth of the Church’s teachings instead of reducing morality to a list of “thou shall nots”. Though I do understand that in some ways and in some areas this can be perceived as a lack of clarity.

Yeah, I don’t believe at all that the fundamental teaching has changed. Maybe if the “new” way of teaching about birth control (HV, CCC, etc.) was taught in context of the documents that came before, there wouldn’t be this apparent awkwardness in reconciling the two. Which is clearly evident by all the hundreds of threads about this topic right here at CAF.

Sure, any increase in wisdom should be welcomed. The problem is just that no one really even bothers to read the newer documents, much less follow the Church’s teachings on NFP (as has been pointed out on this thread). We’re talking about a very select few people here, honestly. Of course I’m not advocating condoning sin, if that is the case, but what I’m trying to say is that we should try to encourage faithfulness to the Church’s teachings on the spacing/postponing of pregnancy–nothing more, nothing less. I don’t mean to sound defensive (and I’m not taking this thread personally, at all), but just trying to get us to acknowledge that this discernment process by NFP using Catholic couples as to whether they are going to try to achieve or avoid pregnancy is typically one made thoughtfully and with prayer, and it’s one that takes place in as many different messy circumstances as there are people. “Serious” just doesn’t look the same across the board, though of course we can all learn from one another…

I fear I’m lacking eloquence today. I hope some of it made sense…

Well I’m always lacking eloquence. But yeah, what you are saying makes sense. It is true from my understanding that we are talking about a minority of Catholic couples here who even bother trying to use NFP correctly. I agree with everything you’ve said above, is: “we should encourage faithfulness to the Church’s teachings on the spacing/postponing of pregnancy.”

Most of my opinions about this come straight out me and my husband’s marriage prep experience. I’d also, personally, like to see the *whole *spectrum of what NFP is and can do presented to couples who go through marriage prep. (That using NFP to avoid is not required, and in fact using NFP *period *is optional, etc.) I think the Church is just so focused on trying to fight the good fight against the ABC epidemic that sometimes using NFP to avoid is over-emphasized. Like it’s the automatic, expected default mode for newlyweds. Again though, I might be getting off-topic here.

 

[ab75]

It’s a much different society today:

A) It used to be (1950s) that when dad went out to work in the morning he was making 3X what any other worker in the world was making for the same job. Those days are gone.

B) It used to be that dad, or recent son graduate could walk into any car manufacturing plant and get a job if he had any kind of connection. And with unions in place he made the kind of money with just a high school diploma that could support 3, 3, 4, or more kids and even send them through college. Those days are gone.

C) It used to be that state’s paid up to 70% of the cost at a state college. This meant a kid could come home, work hard over the summer, and have about enough to make it though the next year. Those days are gone

I think parents have an obligation to make sure their kids have at least as good a chance, if not better chance, to live a successful and happy life. It’s getting very difficult to do that with a large family.

Any gardner can tell you being fruitful and multiplying does not mean plant all the seed you can as close together as possible.

There is no doubt that Children are a blessing and should be welcomed with open arms. I do not doubt that many of us could welcome more into the world, and would be blessed to do so. I also do not doubt that many of us do limit the number of children for somewhat selfish reasons. I also think it’s reasonable to recognize that 100 years ago, financially kids became “assets” much earlier in there lives, as they were often working at home, on the farm and family business from an early age … my one grandfather didn’t have a high school education, just began working. Now, they are certainly a “financial” liability, as in today’s world it is often difficult to find work without a college degree. Even kids who decide to become religous, often have 16 years of school prior to discernment, paid for by partents.

Now I’m certainly not suggesting somebody should have kids only if the can provide them an college education. I’m also not suggesting anyone needs that to be a happy rounded Christian or human. It’s certainly fair to say much of the shift has been driven by a cultural shift toward selfishness and excess. It’s also fair to say that has always existed, and there are other cultural shifts that would have encouraged people in past generations and not today.

 

[ac_claire]

Am I mistaken, but didn’t Pope JP II say that NFP was a very acceptable way to space children and NFP could be used to discern the desire for more children? That in each cycle they were always open to more children even if NFP was used to avoid?

I think that JPII did say those things, in effect, except for the middle statement-- that NFP can be used to discern the desire for more children. I’m almost certain there’s nothing like that in HV or the CCC. (I’m not even sure I understand what it means! )

Not every person is equipped emotionally to have a big family. Why have more children if you know you are not equipped to handle it? Why put future children through that?

This sort of goes back to what I was trying to say in post #120. I just don’t understand how a couple can be *certain *that they’re not equipped to handle a large family, ever. Or is this something that you ackowledge could possibly change?

 

[mini_me640]

I think that JPII did say those things, in effect, except for the middle statement-- that NFP can be used to discern the desire for more children. I’m almost certain there’s nothing like that in HV or the CCC. (I’m not even sure I understand what it means! )

This sort of goes back to what I was trying to say in post #120. I just don’t understand how a couple can be *certain *that they’re not equipped to handle a large family, ever. Or is this something that you ackowledge could possibly change?

I agree that one should never say they are done having children as they don’t know what circumstances or personal changes will take place in their lives and souls. I do think a couple can know, that at a particular time, they are not in a position to handle more children AT THAT TIME.

 

[dontknow]

I believe it is the “children” that are inconvenienced when their parents have no foresight into how much time, attention and emotion can be focused, one on one.

Agreed

 

[Rach620]

I think Pharisaism is more about hypocrisy.

I was speaking more to assuming that outward shows of faith tell us about a person’s heart.

Simply being obedient, especially when it’s a sacrifice, is way underrated IMO. In the case of these hypothetical, historical families we’re talking about, it kind of says even more to me about the strength of their faith if they went ahead and had however many kids beyond what they would normally have chosen if they’d just used their own personal comfort, quality of life, etc. as an indicator of when to stop having kids. I’m not advocating for the “grit your teeth and follow the letter of the law” position, just saying I think it is underrated. It shows they feared God, and they believed the Church.

I agree that simple obedience and childlike faith are underrated nowadays. I guess I just don’t agree that we should look to people of the past who did not space births whatsoever and assume that they were being “simply obedient” or “trusting God” or “believing the Church”. Some might have really had trusting hearts; others just ended up pregnant because they had no control over when it happened. Does not making a decision to either avoid or achieve pregnancy, just because one has NO idea how it even occurs, automatically constitute trust in Providence? I think not…

This isn’t just a history thing either…I know some couples like this today. We’re not one of them, but I do admire their convictions and the fact that they practice what they preach. Most of them are poor and could contracept with nobody outside of the family being any wiser. (I’m on a tanget here though…this is sort of a separate observation from the rest of this conversation…)

I don’t think it’s necessarily better to not space births at all, just a different path God leads some people down. That’s how I understand the Church’s teaching on the matter, anyway.

Yeah, I don’t believe at all that the fundamental teaching has changed. Maybe if the “new” way of teaching about birth control (HV, CCC, etc.) was taught in context of the documents that came before, there wouldn’t be this apparent awkwardness in reconciling the two. Which is clearly evident by all the hundreds of threads about this topic right here at CAF.

Thinking about it, I really don’t think that it’s the “old” vs “new” ways of teaching about marriage and sexuality that have caused “awkwardness” in Catholic understandings of birth control. Rather, I think it’s probably that the culture has changed–a LOT–since the days of Casti Connubii. While people for generations had a shared understanding of marriage and its value and importance, today the Church is having to evangelize even regarding this most “basic” issue, because the culture has changed. More attention is being paid to the fundamental issues and to inspiring a conversion of heart to follow the Church’s teachings on marriage period.

Most of my opinions about this come straight out me and my husband’s marriage prep experience. I’d also, personally, like to see the *whole *spectrum of what NFP is and can do presented to couples who go through marriage prep. (That using NFP to avoid is not required, and in fact using NFP *period *is optional, etc.) I think the Church is just so focused on trying to fight the good fight against the ABC epidemic that sometimes using NFP to avoid is over-emphasized. Like it’s the automatic, expected default mode for newlyweds. Again though, I might be getting off-topic here.

You’re lucky that your marriage prep actually supported the Church’s teaching on birth control! From a pastoral perspective, I definitely think the NFP vs birth control discussion must be included in marriage prep programs. It needs to be introduced in a certain way, but it definitely needs to be covered.

But really, yes, I can kind of see what you are saying about being able to use NFP to avoid being over-emphasized. Some “NFP cheerleaders” almost talk about NFP and its effectiveness, comparing it alongside the Pill, as if it is another, greener, form of contraception. This is misleading and easily gives way to “abusing” NFP–ie, using it without the spirit of discernment that is so necessary.

In some sense, I consider myself to be an NFP cheerleader, but I don’t like NFP for the reasons I said above. I think NFP is a great health tool–so every woman should use it. I also know that life can throw all sorts of things our way, and being able to use NFP to achieve or avoid pregnancy based on life’s changing circumstances is an important tool for married couples to have at their disposal. Neither of these is the secular attitude of “avoid pregnancy until you’re READY”, if you’ll notice .

I think that JPII did say those things, in effect, except for the middle statement-- that NFP can be used to discern the desire for more children. I’m almost certain there’s nothing like that in HV or the CCC. (I’m not even sure I understand what it means! )

Both JPII and Benedict XVI have spoken/written about how the discipline of NFP (particularly of spousal continence) helps husbands and wives learn to love one another. Abstinence helps purify eros with agape. So in that sense, yes, if spouses are growing in agape, they are going to be more open to God’s will, more able to discern whether they are called to have more children. (Not “more than” non-NFP using couples, but more than they were able to before…). There is a positive account to be made for NFP–it is not only “permitted,” but can have positive spiritual effects for married couples.

I can find the cites if you want me to (From Benedict, Deus Caritas Est comes to mind, the first half; I don’t have the specific TOB lectures on hand).

 

[ac_claire]

I agree that simple obedience and childlike faith are underrated nowadays. I guess I just don’t agree that we should look to people of the past who did not space births whatsoever and assume that they were being “simply obedient” or “trusting God” or “believing the Church”. Some might have really had trusting hearts; others just ended up pregnant because they had no control over when it happened. Does not making a decision to either avoid or achieve pregnancy, just because one has NO idea how it even occurs, automatically constitute trust in Providence? I think not…

Definitely. I don’t assume that *every *Catholic couple in the past (and present) who takes children as they come and doesn’t use NFP to avoid/space/postpone pregnancy is simply being obedient to God and the Church. I’m saying that I have a measure of admiration for those who are.

I don’t think it’s necessarily better to not space births at all, just a different path God leads some people down. That’s how I understand the Church’s teaching on the matter, anyway.

As I understand the Church’s teaching on the subject, using NFP to space births should only be done under serious or grave circumstances. Therefore I think whether it’s “better” or “worse” than what the next couple is doing is sort of beside the point. The couples who do use NFP are just in a different situation from those who don’t.

Thinking about it, I really don’t think that it’s the “old” vs “new” ways of teaching about marriage and sexuality that have caused “awkwardness” in Catholic understandings of birth control. Rather, I think it’s probably that the culture has changed–a LOT–since the days of Casti Connubii. While people for generations had a shared understanding of marriage and its value and importance, today the Church is having to evangelize even regarding this most “basic” issue, because the culture has changed. More attention is being paid to the fundamental issues and to inspiring a conversion of heart to follow the Church’s teachings on marriage period.

I agree. And I suspect that the difference between how the Church taught about birth control in the past and how she teaches about it now is probably due to the cultural change as well. I have read that Humanae Vitae for example was a direct response to the cultural crisis of the time, and the epidemic of ABC use among otherwise faithful Catholics.

Both JPII and Benedict XVI have spoken/written about how the discipline of NFP (particularly of spousal continence) helps husbands and wives learn to love one another. Abstinence helps purify eros with agape. So in that sense, yes, if spouses are growing in agape, they are going to be more open to God’s will, more able to discern whether they are called to have more children. (Not “more than” non-NFP using couples, but more than they were able to before…). There is a positive account to be made for NFP–it is not only “permitted,” but can have positive spiritual effects for married couples.

I can find the cites if you want me to (From Benedict, Deus Caritas Est comes to mind, the first half; I don’t have the specific TOB lectures on hand).

If there are any official Church documents that recommend using NFP to help couples discern whether they should have more children, I would definitely like to read them! I have never heard anything about that, before this thread. You don’t have to find the cites for me…I’ll have a look at Deus Caritas Est and see if I can find it.

(But if I can’t find them on my own, then maybe I’ll take you up on that… )

 

[CradleCath]

But I have never made those comments.

2 wrongs don’t make a right.

I didn’t say you did. What you said is that it seemed like other Catholics were judging you for having/wanting a small family & that is “sets your skirt on fire”.

I’m simply saying that I feel the same way when people misjudge our reasons for having a LARGE family. Believe me, I’ve heard a LOT of criticism & all I had was four. They were close together because we wanted them to be. Therefore, when I would take them all to the grocery store, ages 1yr., 3yrs., 4yrs. & 6yrs. you would not BELIEVE the rude remarks & the stares. We had no family close & certainly couldn’t afford a babysitter who would take on our “crew”. My husband both worked in a factory & farmed, so for the early years, these children…their doctor appointments, their eye-doctor appointments, the dentist, the school conferences, etc. were MY responsibility.

We lived on the farm then & my children were a handful, but they were taught young to behave well, to pray everyday, & to know that good manners were basically kindness to others. They didn’t pull that “can I have this, can I have that” junk when we were shopping…nor were they allowed to “squirm” in Church.

The older they got, the more fun was involved. I really enjoyed watching the people they were becoming. We had RULES, one TV. in the household, for two reasons…that was about the only recreation we had & we wanted to do that as a family & two,… we could monitor their watching habits.

They were normal kids, but when I gave them a curfew during their teenage years, they respected it. When we said “nothing good happens after midnight”, they may have grumbled a bit…but they obeyed.

Ornery…yeah. I caught them shooting bottle rockets AT each other one time. My oldest son & his friends stuck the youngest son in the trash can at the local Dairy Queen & when he tried to climb out the can turned over. And on my youngest son’s graduation night they stole the _______(town name) population 240 sign. (I found out about this later & made them take it back & screw it back onto the posts).

BUT, they never missed Mass, they never disrespected one of their teachers or my husband & myself. in fact I’ve never seen them show disrespect to anyone in authority. Most importantly, they were kind & are kind.

I have one bit of advice to you young Mothers who seem so stressed. Pick your fights!!! Let the socks laying on the bathroom floor go, step back during some of the fights between your kids & see if they can work it out on their own. If they can’t, then it’s time to get involved. This one I learned the hard way, if they’re grades drop to a C when you know they can do better, don’t take them off the Basketball team, don’t forbid them going to the Prom…at least not at first. Make sure the punishment is in tune with the “crime”. Instead, just say that they have to sit at the dining room table…no music, no TV…with their books & papers in front of them for an hour every evening. At first you may see rebellion…they’ll sit there with their arms folded. Ignore that, because by the time they’ve been sitting there for a week, they’ll start to study. They have nothing else to do.

And by the way, you can’t start too early. I never took any of my pretties off of the coffee table or put breakables where they couldn’t be reached. I just pulled out one of their toys & said “This is yours & I won’t break it. The other in mine & you mustn’t break that either.”
ALL must be done with them knowing that you love them, that they are special people created by God & loved by God.

And, one of the biggest emotional rewards that my husband & I have gotten is the knowledge that they are raising their own children the same. My Grandchildren…aged 5 - 17yrs., are people I enjoy. Only ONCE have I taken one of them somewhere & been ashamed of him. His name is Jake & he was 4 yrs. old at the time. He misbehaved in McDonalds as I was placing our order. I sat him down in a booth, lowered myself to his eye level & told him that he’d always been such a GOOD boy & I’d always been proud to take him ANYWHERE, but this time I wasn’t. And that I sure hoped this behavior would end…because I really liked spending time with him. That was the last bit of trouble I’ve ever seen & He is now 13 & a great kid.

As far as seeing children as an inconvenience instead of part of the life that God has planned for one, is something I’ll NEVER understand.
Remarks like “we’ve discerned” that we only want two children…or…we feel we are “called” to have a small family is not at all in agreement with Catholic doctrine on family.

 

[Sierrah]

As far as seeing children as an inconvenience instead of part of the life that God has planned for one, is something I’ll NEVER understand.
Remarks like “we’ve discerned” that we only want two children…or…we feel we are “called” to have a small family is not at all in agreement with Catholic doctrine on family.

Well said. I completely agree!

 

[CradleCath]

Well said. I completely agree!

THANK YOU & I LOVE your signature line.

 

[ac_claire]

Rach620;6798712:

Both JPII and Benedict XVI have spoken/written about how the discipline of NFP (particularly of spousal continence) helps husbands and wives learn to love one another. Abstinence helps purify eros with agape. So in that sense, yes, if spouses are growing in agape, they are going to be more open to God’s will, more able to discern whether they are called to have more children. (Not “more than” non-NFP using couples, but more than they were able to before…). There is a positive account to be made for NFP–it is not only “permitted,” but can have positive spiritual effects for married couples.

I can find the cites if you want me to (From Benedict, Deus Caritas Est

comes to mind, the first half; I don’t have the specific TOB lectures on hand).

If there are any official Church documents that recommend using NFP to help couples discern whether they should have more children, I would definitely like to read them! I have never heard anything about that, before this thread. You don’t have to find the cites for me…I’ll have a look at Deus Caritas Est and see if I can find it.

(But if I can’t find them on my own, then maybe I’ll take you up on that… )

I can’t find anything about NFP (or birth control in general) in Deus Caritas Est. Is that the right encyclical?

 

[JadeStarr]

Apparently this is a women’s issue in a lot of places. There’s been an increase in the number of women aged 40 to 45 who have never had children. They may not think of children as an inconvenience, they just don’t want them. I would guess the reasons vary, but as women earn more money and have less of a need to marry to marry and they’re happy maybe they see no reason to change their way of thinking. Also the advent of birth control probably helped.

I wonder what people in China will do now that there’s a shortage of girl children due to their attitudes toward female children. Maybe the girls will become highly prized instead of the boys.

 

[mini_me640]

**As far as seeing children as an inconvenience instead of part of the life that God has planned for one, is something I’ll NEVER understand. **Remarks like “we’ve discerned” that we only want two children…or…we feel we are “called” to have a small family is not at all in agreement with Catholic doctrine on family.

CradleCath - it sounds like you have a beautiful family

This is the thing - the assumption that Catholics who use NFP see children as an inconvenience is unfair. I agree that a person can’t know ahead of time how many children they are meant to have, but I think they can know at a particular time, that it’s best to avoid conception in their particular circumstances. A Catholic shouldn’t say they are done having children as God can change their circumstances and of course NFP (like any method of spacing/limiting births) isn’t foolproof anyway. But to assume that NFP users see children as an inconvenience is not charitable. We can’t know what struggles a person is dealing with - a special needs child, depression or health problems, financial difficulties, a troubled marriage, etc. and the Church permits the use of NFP for “grave reasons” which the couple is to prayerfully discern. If the Church trusts its members to make these decisions using a morally acceptable method (periodic abstinence), why shouldn’t we fellow Catholics do the same and give people the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming that selfishness and misordered priorities are at the root of the couples’ decisions?

 

[mini_me640]

Sierrah,

I just ran across your other thread on being single (and I’m truly sorry that you find yourself feeling alienated as a single in the Church), and I can’t help but ask you something based on your post on that thread as it relates to this one.

Copied from your post on the other thread:
“Strangely enough since I’ve taken a vacation from church the last few weeks I gained an inner peace. I’m probably not leaving the church but going to services every week and feeling alienated was taking a toll that I didn’t realize till I took a break. I plan on going back this week with a refreshed attitude. For those that will say missing mass is a mortal sin …well I’ve never been one of those that thinks God stands there with a rule book just waiting catch us doing something so he can punish us. He knows my motivations and what’s in my heart and I’m sure he’ll judge me on that I’m sure if not well I’ll find out someday I guess.”

So I have to ask:
If you don’t think God is hovering with a rule book trying to catch us in the wrong, and that only He knows your motivations and what’s in your heart why do you not think that applies to others, and particularly to Catholics using NFP to space their children? Why do you think it’s appropriate to judge their motivations and what’s in their hearts when you don’t want others to do that to you?

 

[ac_claire]

Sierrah,

I just ran across your other thread on being single (and I’m truly sorry that you find yourself feeling alienated as a single in the Church), and I can’t help but ask you something based on your post on that thread as it relates to this one.

Copied from your post on the other thread:
"Strangely enough since I’ve taken a vacation from church the last few weeks I gained an inner peace. I’m probably not leaving the church but going to services every week and feeling alienated was taking a toll that I didn’t realize till I took a break. I plan on going back this week with a refreshed attitude. For those that will say missing mass is a mortal sin …well I’ve never been one of those that thinks God stands there with a rule book just waiting catch us doing something so he can punish us. He knows my motivations and what’s in my heart and I’m sure he’ll judge me on that I’m sure if not well I’ll find out someday I guess."

From your comment above Sierrah…it sounds like you maybe don’t understand that wherever you stand in mortal sin is where you stand in relation to God? And that it concerns the state of your immortal soul-- that is, where you will spend eternity. That’s what Jesus taught, what the Church teaches now. I’m not saying you’re going to hell, or that you’ve definitely committed a mortal sin, or anything like that. I don’t know enough about your situation to judge that, and in any case I’m not your confessor. But if there’s any question at all that something you’ve done might be a mortal sin, don’t you think that it’s important enough to not shrug it off and have the attitude of “well I’ll find out someday I guess!”

Seriously, please talk to a priest as soon as you can. It’s as easy as going to Confession.

 

[Serap]

Sierrah,

I just ran across your other thread on being single (and I’m truly sorry that you find yourself feeling alienated as a single in the Church), and I can’t help but ask you something based on your post on that thread as it relates to this one.

Copied from your post on the other thread:
"Strangely enough since I’ve taken a vacation from church the last few weeks I gained an inner peace. I’m probably not leaving the church but going to services every week and feeling alienated was taking a toll that I didn’t realize till I took a break. I plan on going back this week with a refreshed attitude. For those that will say missing mass is a mortal sin …well I’ve never been one of those that thinks God stands there with a rule book just waiting catch us doing something so he can punish us. He knows my motivations and what’s in my heart and I’m sure he’ll judge me on that I’m sure if not well I’ll find out someday I guess."

So I have to ask:
If you don’t think God is hovering with a rule book trying to catch us in the wrong, and that only He knows your motivations and what’s in your heart why do you not think that applies to others, and particularly to Catholics using NFP to space their children? Why do you think it’s appropriate to judge their motivations and what’s in their hearts when you don’t want others to do that to you?

Sierrah,

MiniMe just made a very good point. You have come across in this thread as being extremely arrogant and judgemental and it’s often people who take on that attitude that really have manifested fears coming out as judgement/anger/cynicism, etc.

I think I understand you a bit better now. I think that you really wish you were a wife and mother to someone and you look at married women with only 1 or 2 children with a yearning inside that makes you angry b/c we don’t realize how lucky we are (in your eyes).

I’ve been there myself. I used to get so upset everytime I saw someone who was engaged or having a baby; especially if they were younger than me. My fear of being alone came out as resentment/fear/anger towards women who were getting what I wanted. I would secretly hope that they were in a bad relationship and I would make assumptions like, “I bet he cheats on her” or “I think they are probably unhappy and just staying together for the kids”.

For you it’s seeing women stopping at 1 or 2 children when your perspective is that “don’t we realize how blessed we are and why are we stopping at 1 or 2 when being able to HAVE children is a blessing.” You feel anger towards us for this b/c of your own fear that you may never have children of your own.

You may not realize this, but this thinking is not coming from God. The “other guy” is playing with your thoughts. Don’t be judgemental; it’s so so unattractive. We women are practicing NFP with God in our hearts. I AM open to life with each cycle and I DO discern with each cycle whether or not we can have another child at this time. God will give us another child if He wants us to have another child. We are not saying “NO” to God when we practice NFP. You need to realize this and not feel so much judgement towards us. It will tear you up inside. Ask God to take this away from you.

 

[CradleCath]

My kids are 21 months apart. I had two in diapers. My MIL had 4 cribs in one room! My DH is one of 9. I will admit, there is no way I could handle it. I worked full time and so did my DH. My kids are now 26 and 24. Son is in college and daughter is working. They are the loves of my life and I was blessed with 2. We didn’t live in a palace, or have fancy cars or a pool in the backyard. We had enough to get by.

Though, my husband & I have raised 4 children, we have 2 who are 13 months apart & it seems in retrospect that I had at least one in diapers for 8 years…I definitely had two in diapers at one time for quite a while.

I thought I was having a 3rd at the age of 31. ** Turns out it was a fibroid and I had a hysterectomy. **

 

[CradleCath]

I disagree with this. I’d say that you & hubby need to discuss with GOD what He wants & how He wants you to fulfill His plan for your life. Together. It is only in follwing **His **

 

[EasterJoy]

CradleCath;6806453:

I’m sorry if I sound “preachy” about this subject. It’s just one I feel VERY strongly about. I know, of course, that you’re all good Catholic people. After all, you are using NFP when the majority of “Catholics” are using ABC.

It’s just that it’s getting hard to tell the difference between a Catholic family & a non-Catholic family, anymore.

There’s nothing wrong with feeling very strongly about NFP and ABC–the Church preaches very strongly about it!–but putting the quotes around “Catholic” crosses a line.

Those who are baptized, and who are therefore Catholic. Excepting those who have formally left the Church, that’s it…and even they need repentence, not re-baptism. Period.

There are those whose actions are praiseworthy and those whose actions make them worthy of admonishment, and there is nothing wrong with recognizing that, to some extent. Nevertheless it does not fall on us to imply that anyone else in the Body of Christ is a “so-called” Catholic. That error puts our own souls at risk…and puts us at risk of blending in pretty neatly with the standards of the world, too, I might add. When we can manage to treat fellow sinners as exactly that, both fellows and sinners, that is when we stand out.

That’s what I feel VERY strongly about.