When Did Christianity officially split from Judaism?

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Kaninchen said:
Much easier to take the Jewish definition of you, ie ‘Christians’ which can be defined as “belonging to the very, very different religion known as Christianity.” 😉
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Very different in a sense but as I responded to one poster on another thread

Poster: “if they proved Jesus’s body is buried idk what, I guess I would be atheist?”

Me: “How about Jewish?”

See bc if a Christian found post Jesus info incorrect but not pre, we would be naturaly default to Judaism minus other issue or I suppose Islam if they believed that were a true account of why the Christian version was “off”…

Islam however seems to be too arab centric and too unjewish from my understanding…

Whereas christianity does not negate the “chosen” so much as include greater options.

Since prior to the need for Judaism all were just “of God” with no seperation and no title… it does make sense to someday bring the rest of humanity toward God…

The debate would be was it Jesus or not.

If yes then we are all good, if no then we will need much repent and grace of God :confused:
 
LethalMouse said:
Very different in a sense but as I responded to one poster on another thread

Poster: “if they proved Jesus’s body is buried idk what, I guess I would be atheist?”

Me: “How about Jewish?”
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Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus. They are very, very different religions.
 
Kaninchen said:
Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus. They are very, very different religions.
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We both believe the OT is true right?

If someone could prove to me the NT was false but not disprove the OT most notably say a Jewish person could prove to me Jesus was not the Messiah…

How then do you claim that I would not continue following the OT?

Perhaps some would not, but logically I would only see one course of sensible action which would be to follow the OT.

Now again from a fair agnostic type POV

If Jesus WAS the Messiah then you are wrong.

If Jesus WAS NOT the Messiah then you are sort of right…

But any Christian who logically still holds the OT correct if the NT was proven false would procceed to the nearest synagogue and have a chat with the rabbi.
 
LethalMouse said:
We both believe the OT is true right?
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It depends on what you mean by . . .

The problem with your entire argument is that you assume that Judaism ‘works like’ Christianity and it just doesn’t.

You cannot assume that we share the same concepts, the same foci - well, you can but you’ll end up with an invented Judaism if you do which is the trouble with your post. 🙂
 
Kaninchen said:
It depends on what you mean by . . .

The problem with your entire argument is that you assume that Judaism ‘works like’ Christianity and it just doesn’t.

You cannot assume that we share the same concepts, the same foci - well, you can but you’ll end up with an invented Judaism if you do which is the trouble with your post. 🙂
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There are a few sects of Judaism still totally “Jewish” not going into anything too crazy.

Do you view the sects other than yours as “wrong jews” or “not Jewish at all”???

Because if the latter than I suppose even if me and you were both Jewish but our only difference was I thought something should start at 5:01 and you thought it at 5:02

Well then according to you I would cease to be even remotely “Jewish”.

Tbh I take a very Jewish read of the OT and actually the lack of any Jewish community successfully following OT law is one fact that makes Christianity make sense to me 🙂

If I were to loose faith in the NT but not the OT I pressume I would out OT most 😛
 
LethalMouse said:
There are a few sects of Judaism still totally “Jewish” not going into anything too crazy.

Do you view the sects other than yours as “wrong jews” or “not Jewish at all”???

Because if the latter than I suppose even if me and you were both Jewish but our only difference was I thought something should start at 5:01 and you thought it at 5:02

Well then according to you I would cease to be even remotely “Jewish”.

Tbh I take a very Jewish read of the OT and actually the lack of any Jewish community successfully following OT law is one fact that makes Christianity make sense to me 🙂

If I were to loose faith in the NT but not the OT I pressume I would out OT most 😛
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I think you really need to find out a bit more about Judaism before talking about it too much. 😉
 
Kaninchen said:
Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus. They are very, very different religions.
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Yes. I would recommend that you say this again and again until people hear it and understand it.

We share much history, and indeed, Christianity’s roots are in Judaism. Your covenant with God is, of course, the First Covenant. Ours came after. But we are different.

Personally, I enjoy going to synagogue and to my friends’ table for Shabbat. I learn so much and can appreciate that these are my roots. However, as you said, it is not Christianity minus Jesus.
 
Kaninchen said:
Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus. They are very, very different religions.
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Well, Christianity started out as a Jewish sect and all its original leaders and founders were Jewish. But today, Judaism and Christianity are now different religions. We still believe in the same God though so we are both Abrahamic.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
I don’t believe that there was ever any official break - the communities just drifted apart. Those that were primarily Gentiles had a different focus on prayer and ritual than the communities that were primarily Jewish. Remember that early Christianity was pretty fragmented in terms of location, texts, and purpose.

There were Christians who were still practicing Jews and worshipping in synagogues in and around Jerusalem and into Syria, but they had pretty much disappeared by the 5th century.
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To make matters even more complicated, Jews were also fragmented into many more than the major three or four sects. In addition to Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots, it is estimated there were about 20 to 30 minor Jewish sects. Jewish Christians were no doubt one of them.
 
Kaninchen said:
I think you really need to find out a bit more about Judaism before talking about it too much. 😉
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All you have done is tell me that I know nothing and that my interpretation of Judiasm/Christianity division is wrong.

You have not offered a single arguement other than “you are wrong”

Come and enlighten me please.
 
The acorn and oak tree are nothing alike…

… Except for the fact that one is contained in, and comes from, the other. 🤷
 
LethalMouse said:
All you have done is tell me that I know nothing and that my interpretation of Judiasm/Christianity division is wrong.

You have not offered a single arguement other than “you are wrong”

Come and enlighten me please.
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I’ve offered observations rather then arguments for a number of reasons - one of them is that such a discussion would be a major diversion from the context of the OP.

It’s not my job to ‘enlighten’ you and it’s a discussion that I’ve been involved in here on multiple occasions over nearly a decade now so, I have to say, I’m somewhat lacking in enthusiasm at the moment.

You have to decide whether you want to invent Judaisms to talk about or try to understand the religion on its own terms - it’s my impression that Christians eventually find that understanding Judaism as it is is more helpful to their understanding of their own religion.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’ve offered observations rather then arguments for a number of reasons - one of them is that such a discussion would be a major diversion from the context of the OP.

It’s not my job to ‘enlighten’ you and it’s a discussion that I’ve been involved in here on multiple occasions over nearly a decade now so, I have to say, I’m somewhat lacking in enthusiasm at the moment.

You have to decide whether you want to invent Judaisms to talk about or try to understand the religion on its own terms - it’s my impression that Christians eventually find that understanding Judaism as it is is more helpful to their understanding of their own religion.
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The problem is neither of us discussed substance in any context other than my agreeing with the validity of your scriptures.

Your only accusation is that I do not believe in your scriptures… to which I have no idea what that means…

As far as I know I am totally cool with the OT

You say I do not believe in the OT

Idk what context that is in whatsoever…
 
Hatikvah said:
I think he means the Oral Torah (Talmud, Mishnah).
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Well wouldn’t the teachings of the Rabbis and the authorities of Judaism be what is sought by someone who rejects the NT and accepts the OT??

My whole point was that there is only one place to go (discounting sects) if one loses faith in the NT and maintains it in the OT…

The only option other than falling in line with the Rabbis would be to start your own made up brand of Judaism which is not what I was suggesting O.o
 
LethalMouse said:
The problem is neither of us discussed substance in any context other than my agreeing with the validity of your scriptures.

Your only accusation is that I do not believe in your scriptures… to which I have no idea what that means…
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No, the problem is that you’re imposing Christian paradigms on Judaism and Jewish scripture. To Christians, generally, the OT leads up to your Saviour and Jews have, somehow, failed to accept your Saviour in that context.

So, you think that my refusal to accept that argument means that I’m saying you don’t ‘believe’ in the OT - except whether you ‘believe’ in the OT is irrelevant to me because we Jews don’t have the same relationship to the Tanakh as you have to the OT, in other words, we’re ‘believing’ in different things.

The focus of Judaism is Torah (the Law) and everything else could be described as commentary. Judaism is a very here and now religion, it’s about living ethical monotheism day by day.

Seriously, if you want to understand Judaism, stop thinking of it as Christianity minus Jesus, the religion just doesn’t work that way.
 
Kaninchen said:
No, the problem is that you’re imposing Christian paradigms on Judaism and Jewish scripture. To Christians, generally, the OT leads up to your Saviour and Jews have, somehow, failed to accept your Saviour in that context.

So, you think that my refusal to accept that argument means that I’m saying you don’t ‘believe’ in the OT - except whether you ‘believe’ in the OT is irrelevant to me because we Jews don’t have the same relationship to the Tanakh as you have to the OT, in other words, we’re ‘believing’ in different things.

The focus of Judaism is Torah (the Law) and everything else could be described as commentary. Judaism is a very here and now religion, it’s about living ethical monotheism day by day.

Seriously, if you want to understand Judaism, stop thinking of it as Christianity minus Jesus, the religion just doesn’t work that way.
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You then clearly missed my point.

I said specifically WITHOUT the belief in the OT’s tie in to Jesus.

As in I do (or at least think i do) understand what it would at least roughly be to be Jewish** if I negate the NT**.

The whole oddity here is I am someone of a different religion than you who is telling you that I can see things from your POV if my POV was wrong…

And you say “nu uh”…

Seriously I am all but giving you mucho credit on your religion and you say I like Jesus so I suck… wth is this?

Is it 2016?

Or 116AD?

Dang lady…peace in the middle east?
 
LethalMouse said:
You then clearly missed my point.

I said specifically WITHOUT the belief in the OT’s tie in to Jesus.

As in I do (or at least think i do) understand what it would at least roughly be to be Jewish** if I negate the NT**.

The whole oddity here is I am someone of a different religion than you who is telling you that I can see things from your POV if my POV was wrong…

And you say “nu uh”…

Seriously I am all but giving you mucho credit on your religion and you say I like Jesus so I suck… wth is this?

Is it 2016?

Or 116AD?

Dang lady…peace in the middle east?
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We’ve obviously had quite enough of each other! 😃
 
In fact to sum up the whole “OT is the law” that is “our difference”

At least in my learnings back in the day I was taught

Jesus = fullfil law AND

If no Jesus = Law is paramount

Ergo if I lost faith in NT and had it in OT LAW would be the most important thing

Sabbath
Kosher
Etc…

Living a life of obedience to the WORD of God as He commanded.
 
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