When Did Christianity officially split from Judaism?

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Kaninchen said:
No, the problem is that you’re imposing Christian paradigms on Judaism and Jewish scripture. To Christians, generally, the OT leads up to your Saviour and Jews have, somehow, failed to accept your Saviour in that context.

So, you think that my refusal to accept that argument means that I’m saying you don’t ‘believe’ in the OT - except whether you ‘believe’ in the OT is irrelevant to me because we Jews don’t have the same relationship to the Tanakh as you have to the OT, in other words, we’re ‘believing’ in different things.

The focus of Judaism is Torah (the Law) and everything else could be described as commentary. Judaism is a very here and now religion, it’s about living ethical monotheism day by day.

Seriously, if you want to understand Judaism, stop thinking of it as Christianity minus Jesus, the religion just doesn’t work that way.
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Well obviously, if Jesus IS the Messiah… Then you definitely failed to accept something important. But LM isn’t reading it like you imply. He’s saying that if he accepts your premise that Jesus was a false Messiah, he would DEFAULT to Judaism as described in the OT. If you’re saying Judaism no longer looks like that… Ok, but then the question is why?

Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus, I agree. It developed beyond that. I don’t think anyone here said that, either. Only in the first century of Christianity was there some confusion about how much Judaistic practice we were carrying among with us.

If you’re making the distinction that you, as a Jew, place a different authority over the Law as described in the Old Testament - which we have in common - that’s a distinction you can make, but it’s one that neither I nor LM were commenting upon. 🤷
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Well obviously, if Jesus IS the Messiah… Then you definitely failed to accept something important. But LM isn’t reading it like you imply. He’s saying that if he accepts your premise that Jesus was a false Messiah, he would DEFAULT to Judaism as described in the OT. If you’re saying Judaism no longer looks like that… Ok, but then the question is why?
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No longer looks like that? I’m saying that it never did look like that.
 
Judaism is a “national” religion. Christianity is a universal religion. Christians view the OT, Jews and Judaism as more of a backdrop to God’s plan, not the main focus. The Jews were the people God chose to bring monotheism and the Messiah into the world… That’s really it. That’s how Christians view Judaism.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Well obviously, if Jesus IS the Messiah… Then you definitely failed to accept something important. But LM isn’t reading it like you imply. He’s saying that if he accepts your premise that Jesus was a false Messiah, he would DEFAULT to Judaism as described in the OT. If you’re saying Judaism no longer looks like that… Ok, but then the question is why?
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The problem lies in the idea of what one means as ‘described in the OT’ - for example, if you looked at a Tanakh, you’d notice something immediately, it isn’t organized in the same way as the OT and their different organizations would tell you a lot.

The OT ‘leads up’ to something - the Tanakh focuses ‘back’ at something and that’s rather important. What is ‘described in the OT’ is a Christian paradigm of pre-Jesus scripture and I’m saying that Judaism never had that paradigm.
 
Kaninchen said:
The problem lies in the idea of what one means as ‘described in the OT’ - for example, if you looked at a Tanakh, you’d notice something immediately, it isn’t organized in the same way as the OT and their different organizations would tell you a lot.

The OT ‘leads up’ to something - the Tanakh focuses ‘back’ at something and that’s rather important. What is ‘described in the OT’ is a Christian paradigm of pre-Jesus scripture and I’m saying that Judaism never had that paradigm.
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How can it be our paradigm when we got it directly from you? Are you claiming we edited it? :confused:
 
Kaninchen said:
The problem lies in the idea of what one means as ‘described in the OT’ - for example, if you looked at a Tanakh, you’d notice something immediately, it isn’t organized in the same way as the OT and their different organizations would tell you a lot.

The OT ‘leads up’ to something - the Tanakh focuses ‘back’ at something and that’s rather important. What is ‘described in the OT’ is a Christian paradigm of pre-Jesus scripture and I’m saying that Judaism never had that paradigm.
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Well, that’s mainly because the Christian Old Testament is translated from the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
How can it be our paradigm when we got it directly from you? Are you claiming we edited it? :confused:
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Am I saying that Christianity is a different way of seeing/understanding and that it’s not Jewish?

Ah, now thereby hangs a tale/tail but it’s another argument for another thread at another time but, briefly, yes.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Well, that’s mainly because the Christian Old Testament is translated from the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate.
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I was using an example, the point about ‘reading forward’ and ‘reading backward’ still stands though.
 
Well, of course, I know that Christianity is true because of the resurrection of Jesus. Judaism is indeed, nothing more than a backdrop to God’s plan.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Well, of course, I know that Christianity is true because of the resurrection of Jesus. Judaism is indeed, nothing more than a backdrop to God’s plan.
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Fortunately, being Jewish, I’m able to look upon Christianity as being mainly harmless to its followers. 😉
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Harmless?
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Hey, your post did rather ‘seek’ a rejoinder and well, yes, religiously-speaking, from a Jewish perspective, Christians are not disadvantaged by being Christians, they can have the same hopes for the ‘World to Come’ as we have.
 
Kaninchen said:
Hey, your post did rather ‘seek’ a rejoinder and well, yes, religiously-speaking, from a Jewish perspective, Christians are not disadvantaged by being Christians, they can have the same hopes for the ‘World to Come’ as we have.
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Christians don’t see Jews at a disadvantage either. The Catholic Church actively discourages trying to convert Jews. Christians don’t believe just because you’re not a Christian you’ll go to hell. Salvation does come from Christ, indeed. But God is God and he can save everyone. The Church does believe that it is possible that in the end, everybody, even the worst of the worst, could be saved. The reality of hell is not denied, but we don’t know who will go. That is why universal salvation is possible. I’ll also say this, we don’t even know if we ourselves are going to heaven or hell.
 
Kaninchen said:
Fortunately, being Jewish, I’m able to look upon Christianity as being mainly harmless to its followers. 😉
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The other fellas assertion aside, I was in fairness speaking more scientifically and unbias.

After clarifying your misunderstanding to SS and thereby me…

You have described in essence exactly what I claimed Judaism was without the NT.

So as we agree but you do not like my wording of description to Judaism and Christianity…

Ergo my entire point, as IF NOT Jesus than we would be Jews at least those who would hear of Judaism and seek to join them…

And I get that you are not as good at stepping back from bias but IF Jesus is who Christians think He is THEN if everyone followed the “right” way of God then all Jews would have been Christians and all people would be joining the Jewish faith and not the Christian faith.

Again IF EITHER SIDE Jew or Christian cannot set aside bias then this is a convo of right vs wrong…

If they stop for conversational purposes and look at it as if an alien learning our history… then this is how it would appear.

I come with olive branches and no arrows on this matter 🙂

:hug3:

So in summation the Jews who became Christians believed (even if in error) that they were following the JEWISH Messiah so as to them they are “proper Jews”

Whereas if they were wrong or misguided then surely they were improper and are now heretical/even questionably near Pagan in a sense bc if Jesus is not God incarnate then we would be guilty of breaking the first commandment let alone the finer points of law

But that does not change that scientificallly even if “misguided” Christians believe they are following the proper order of Jewish faith.

So to deal with people not freaking out over various linguistics new names are needed to large enough breaks of groups and religions etc…
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Christians don’t see Jews at a disadvantage either. The Catholic Church actively discourages trying to convert Jews. Christians don’t believe just because you’re not a Christian you’ll go to hell. Salvation does come from Christ, indeed. But God is God and he can save everyone. The Church does believe that it is possible that in the end, everybody, even the worst of the worst, could be saved. The reality of hell is not denied, but we don’t know who will go. That is why universal salvation is possible. I’ll also say this, we don’t even know if we ourselves are going to heaven or hell.
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As Kaninchen pointed out, Judaism is more a religion of the here and now and less concerned by questions concerning the afterlife. Further, the notion of salvation is not defined in the Christian sense that we need a Savior because we are sinners. These concepts–salvation and sinner–are quite foreign to Judaism. Salvation is not a preoccupation, first of all, and, secondly, it is regarded as each individual’s responsibility to behave toward others in an ethical way. The focus in Judaism is on doing good rather than atoning for evil. And the notion that Judaism is merely a “backdrop to G-d’s plan” is not felt by Jews even though it may be regarded as such by Christians. Judaism is, on the contrary, an orthoprax religion, rather than an orthodox one, that is, a way of life.
 
meltzerboy said:
As Kaninchen pointed out, Judaism is more a religion of the here and now and less concerned by questions concerning the afterlife. Further, the notion of salvation is not defined in the Christian sense that we need a Savior because we are sinners. These concepts–salvation and sinner–are quite foreign to Judaism. Salvation is not a preoccupation, first of all, and, secondly, it is regarded as each individual’s responsibility to behave toward others in an ethical way. The focus in Judaism is on doing good rather than atoning for evil. And the notion that Judaism is merely a “backdrop to G-d’s plan” is not felt by Jews even though it may be regarded as such by Christians. Judaism is, on the contrary, an orthoprax religion, rather than an orthodox one, that is, a way of life.
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I can’t totally disagree but with your take on Christianity as it seems more a take on Christians than Christianity and nearing Protestantism more than Catholicism.

Following God is the Goal, the point in the here and now.
One should follow God simply TO FOLLOW GOD

Judaism does have heaven and such right? Elijah?

But in judaism I would agree the following of God NOW is more emphasized vs what could be later and such.

Christianity is still SUPPOSED to focus on following God Here and Now…

The fact that Christianity offers a more forgiveness based future is often overly used as a license to ill and not something that is supposed to be such hence “do not sin for the sake of grace”…

Which is basically the Protestant mantra “sin bc I said Jesus” but is much less so the Catholic mantra which does emphasize obedience and good living far more than others…

Though I would near agree that the “get out of jail free card” is waved by humans a bit much… our call is to live good NOW regardless of the other details involved.
 
Or maybe I am just weird…

But I see it as a “way of life” and not my get out of jail free card…

Of course my choice is influenced by experience that one need live for God… bc that is what God wants. My get out of jail or go to jail has become irrelevant for me anyway 🙂
 
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