When Did Christianity officially split from Judaism?

[Kaninchen]

960

I disagree, I would say Catholicism is in the same faith line as Abraham, Jacob and Isacc under a New Covenant established by the Messiah. Is Judaism today not different than Abraham’s religion? Was it not different in the wilderness. Judaism today is different than it was in Christ’s time. There are no priests, no sacrifice no Temple, where God meets with His people.

Yet we see those things continued in the Catholic Church. Priests, sacrifice and the presents of God, in the Body (Temple) of Christ, the Church where He meets with His people. The Church is the regenerated Davidic Kingdom. Christ being the Son of David is King with His mother as queen mother.

[Gal3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.]

I suggest you have something of a rethink of statements like ‘Judaism today is different than it was in Christ’s time.’ I don’t want to get into an argument about it here (one of those ‘been there, done that’ a few too many times’ things) but consider just what part the Temple, in Jerusalem (only place it could be) had in the lives of your average Jew in the street/hillside/market in the Jewish world at that time and just how they were likely to experience their religion.

No point in quoting the NT to me, by the way.

 

[Kaninchen]

The opinion holds up the idea that meltzerboy and kanninchen’s ancestors must have picked up the smatterings of the concept during the Babylonian captivity and further expanded on it after Cyrus overturned the whole ancient middle east.

Cyrus was Messiah.

Well, in the sense that he was seen as somebody for whom God had a special purpose which is one definition of Messiah (there could be said to have been quite a few).

What was the influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism? Here’s the Jewish Encyclopaedia on the subject but my particular view (I used to have a Zoroastrian friend) is that it seems to have been strongest on the spiritual side (kabbalah sort of stuff) and Jewish superstition. Driven there by the forces of monotheistic orthodoxy? Perhaps.

I’d suggest that the intellectual influence on Christianity is more evident.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Cyrus was Messiah.

What was the influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism? Here’s the Jewish Encyclopaedia on the subject but my particular view (I used to have a Zoroastrian friend) is that it seems to have been strongest on the spiritual side (kabbalah sort of stuff) and Jewish superstition. Driven there by the forces of monotheistic orthodoxy? Perhaps.

I’d suggest that the intellectual influence on Christianity is more evident.

Many scholars today don’t believe the influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism was as substantial as previously thought.

 

[Kaninchen]

Many scholars today don’t believe the influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism was as substantial as previously thought.

I think that the influence of the sea of religions in which Judaism developed was generally a case of ‘reaction to’ rather than ‘because of’ - falling away in some sense giving way to greater orthodoxy - what lingered lingered in superstition and superstitious practices, of course, which were much more difficult to erase.

 

[jlhargus]

I suggest you have something of a rethink of statements like ‘Judaism today is different than it was in Christ’s time.’ I don’t want to get into an argument about it here (one of those ‘been there, done that’ a few too many times’ things)

I don’t want an argument either. But if you have discussed several times how there are no differences in Judaism today and in Christ’s time, that should make it very easy for you to answer.

but consider just what part the Temple, in Jerusalem (only place it could be) had in the lives of your average Jew in the street/hillside/market in the Jewish world at that time and just how they were likely to experience their religion. No point in quoting the NT to me, by the way.

I would suppose the part the Temple had in the lives of your average Jew in the street would be similar to the part the Vatican has in the lives of your average Catholic. But without the Bishops and priest there would be no more sacrifice. That would be a totally different Catholicism. Just as the destruction of the Temple leaves a totally different Judaism.

According to what I have read Jewish males living within 35 miles of the Temple where required go to Jerusalem on three holy or fest days each year. One being Passover when many came from other countries.

 

[pablope]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplineSanFran View Post
I don’t believe that there was ever any official break - the communities just drifted apart. Those that were primarily Gentiles had a different focus on prayer and ritual than the communities that were primarily Jewish. Remember that early Christianity was pretty fragmented in terms of location, texts, and purpose.

It is probably around this time…shamelesspopery.com/can-protestants-rely-upon-the-council-of-jamnia-for-their-bible/

The Jamnia School Was Very Anti-Christian: While we can’t say that the Jamnia rabbinical school ever produced a Biblical canon, we can point to a major contribution of the school. It produced an ugly prayer called the Birkat haMinim, which cursed the Christians as sectarians, and prayed to God that for these “sectarians,” “let there be no hope, and may all the evil in an instant be destroyed and all Thy enemies be cut down swiftly; and the evil ones uproot and break and destroy and humble soon in our days. Blessed art You, LORD, who breaks down enemies and humbles sinners.” This prayer was to be prayed every Sabbath, and it forced the Jewish Christians to stop worshiping with the non-Christian Jews in synagogue.
Prior to this, those Jews who accepted Christ still felt comfortable going to Synagogue, where they would attempt to convert others by speaking of Him as the long-awaited Messiah. For example, this is described as Paul and Barnabas’ regular practice in places like Acts 14:1 and Acts 17:2. After the Birkat haMinim, those days were decisively over. A Christian could pray to the God of the Jews in good conscience, as He’s the God of the Christians as well. But obviously, a Jewish Christian couldn’t ask God to quickly damn the Christians.

I should mention that, for whatever it’s worth, there’s some question about how broadly this curse on “sectarians” was to be interpreted, and likely, different believers prayed the anti-sectarian prayer with different enemies in mind. The Israeli historian Gedaliah Alon, for example, contends “that the Birkat HaMinim may have been directed solely at those Jewish Christians who had adopted an anti-nomian position, thus denying the central tenet of Judaism at the time, covenantal nomism.” No matter. Even if Judaizer Christians were exempt from the curse, it was still viewed as an anti-Christian attack, and Jewish Christians left over it.

 

[TheAtheist]

Cyrus was Messiah.

Well, in the sense that he was seen as somebody for whom God had a special purpose which is one definition of Messiah (there could be said to have been quite a few).

As I try to shake off the cobwebs of my mind on this subject, I vaguely recall hearing about another Jewish Messiah…or perhaps a “false-alarm>”

Shabbat Zev(?) or something to that effect. He apparently lived during the time of Oliver Cromwell and was purported at the time to bring about the restoration of your people to the Land of Israel. If i recall correctly, Mr. Zev’s endeavor did not end so well.

I guess there must be a lot of claimaints who come out of the woodwork from time to time though.

What was the influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism? Here’s the Jewish Encyclopaedia on the subject but my particular view (I used to have a Zoroastrian friend) is that it seems to have been strongest on the spiritual side (kabbalah sort of stuff) and Jewish superstition. Driven there by the forces of monotheistic orthodoxy? Perhaps.

I’d suggest that the intellectual influence on Christianity is more evident.

Ah! Now that is quite intriguing. So at least by your analysis the Parsees added to the i guess you’d call it the “Metaphysical” side of Judaism?

Hmm. Must have been due to the fact that your people’s faith is at meltzerboy had stated, orthoprax.

When I speak with the Muslims of Middle Eastern extraction about the possible effect Zoroastrianism may have had on their own religion’s development…(assuming they are willing to have this conversation to begin with)… I usually get a refrain regarding corruption.

The Sufis of India and the Shi’ite populations i’ve had cause to speak tend to give a much similar assessment as yours - Zoroastrianism added to the metaphysics of their faith… and interesting mystical tidbits.

 

[thephilosopher6]

It is probably around this time…shamelesspopery.com/can-protestants-rely-upon-the-council-of-jamnia-for-their-bible/

The Jamnia School Was Very Anti-Christian: While we can’t say that the Jamnia rabbinical school ever produced a Biblical canon, we can point to a major contribution of the school. It produced an ugly prayer called the Birkat haMinim, which cursed the Christians as sectarians, and prayed to God that for these “sectarians,” “let there be no hope, and may all the evil in an instant be destroyed and all Thy enemies be cut down swiftly; and the evil ones uproot and break and destroy and humble soon in our days. Blessed art You, LORD, who breaks down enemies and humbles sinners.” This prayer was to be prayed every Sabbath, and it forced the Jewish Christians to stop worshiping with the non-Christian Jews in synagogue.
Prior to this, those Jews who accepted Christ still felt comfortable going to Synagogue, where they would attempt to convert others by speaking of Him as the long-awaited Messiah. For example, this is described as Paul and Barnabas’ regular practice in places like Acts 14:1 and Acts 17:2. After the Birkat haMinim, those days were decisively over. A Christian could pray to the God of the Jews in good conscience, as He’s the God of the Christians as well. But obviously, a Jewish Christian couldn’t ask God to quickly damn the Christians.

I should mention that, for whatever it’s worth, there’s some question about how broadly this curse on “sectarians” was to be interpreted, and likely, different believers prayed the anti-sectarian prayer with different enemies in mind. The Israeli historian Gedaliah Alon, for example, contends “that the Birkat HaMinim may have been directed solely at those Jewish Christians who had adopted an anti-nomian position, thus denying the central tenet of Judaism at the time, covenantal nomism.” No matter. Even if Judaizer Christians were exempt from the curse, it was still viewed as an anti-Christian attack, and Jewish Christians left over it.

The Council of Jamnia is a hypothetical council and many scholars don’t believe it ever took place.

 

[pablope]

The Council of Jamnia is a hypothetical council and many scholars don’t believe it ever took place.

Yes, the article actually refutes the council, and calls it a rabbinical school at best.

 

[AdorateDominum]

When exactly did Christians really start to see themselves as something distinct from Judaism?

I would just like to humbly make a point.

“Judaism” is a term that, to modern ears, mostly connotes the form of the Hebrew religion that many Jews practice today, so-called *Rabbinic *Judaism.

Of course, Christianity never split from Judaism in that sense: Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity are sister religions, and they share Temple Judaism for a mother.

I don’t know if there’s any need to point this out, but it’s helpful to frame things in this manner, IMHO.

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t want an argument either. But if you have discussed several times how there are no differences in Judaism today and in Christ’s time, that should make it very easy for you to answer.

Well, let’s suppose I’m not really in the answering business and I’ll do the questioning and you do the heavy lifting? Does that suit?

So, we’ll put the rest of your post aside for awhile - because there’s a lot for me to question there but we need to extend our range of issues a little bit.

Right then, in the Temple sacrificial system what exactly was being atoned for? Were there alternative means of atonement for those specifics? What happened when there wasn’t a Temple?

 

[meltzerboy]

As I try to shake off the cobwebs of my mind on this subject, I vaguely recall hearing about another Jewish Messiah…or perhaps a “false-alarm>”

Shabbat Zev(?) or something to that effect. He apparently lived during the time of Oliver Cromwell and was purported at the time to bring about the restoration of your people to the Land of Israel. If i recall correctly, Mr. Zev’s endeavor did not end so well.

I guess there must be a lot of claimaints who come out of the woodwork from time to time though.

Ah! Now that is quite intriguing. So at least by your analysis the Parsees added to the i guess you’d call it the “Metaphysical” side of Judaism?

Hmm. Must have been due to the fact that your people’s faith is at meltzerboy had stated, orthoprax.

When I speak with the Muslims of Middle Eastern extraction about the possible effect Zoroastrianism may have had on their own religion’s development…(assuming they are willing to have this conversation to begin with)… I usually get a refrain regarding corruption.

The Sufis of India and the Shi’ite populations i’ve had cause to speak tend to give a much similar assessment as yours - Zoroastrianism added to the metaphysics of their faith… and interesting mystical tidbits.

The battle between the forces of good and evil as seen in Zoroastrianism did not so much take root in Judaism; however, it certainly did in Christianity.

 

[TheAtheist]

The battle between the forces of good and evil as seen in Zoroastrianism did not so much take root in Judaism; however, it certainly did in Christianity.

Hmm… I do have to wonder how that happened.

I mean this whole thread is predicated on the notion that Early Christianity and…what did some folks call it… “Rabbinic Judaism” are kind of sister…or perhaps estranged cousin religions coming out of the already fractured kaleidoscope of Second Temple Judaism right?

So at some particular point and time, people made decisions about what “themes” get emphasized or what outside influences might prove useful for elucidating your faiths…

I’m assuming that Hellenistic philosophy was a common influence on both - in fact the divisions i tend to see when asking various Christians about their specific sect seems to hinge on their relationship with Graeco-Roman thought. If i understand this well enough - the Catholics “christianized” it, the Orthodox formed an alternative understanding by redefining philosophical vocabulary, and one of the various reasons why certain Protestants reject the other two groups is because they’ve been “tainted” somehow by Greek philosophy…

I’ll be honest - i have no clue how Greek philosophy intersects (or is rejected?) by your faith… except i’ve been told to read on numerous occasions the work of a Josepheus and a Maimonides…

But that all makes sense - i mean you can’t really avoid Hellenism in that neck of the woods. The philosophical tradition defines the scope and rules of argumentation. It would be like trying to avoid Confucianism in China or Vedic thought in India.

But Zoroastarinism? I wonder why it could have ended up influencing the Christians and yet seems to have little effect on Judaism…

 

[Kaninchen]

Hmm… I do have to wonder how that happened.

I mean this whole thread is predicated on the notion that Early Christianity and…what did some folks call it… “Rabbinic Judaism” are kind of sister…or perhaps estranged cousin religions coming out of the already fractured kaleidoscope of Second Temple Judaism right?

. . . . .

But Zoroastarinism? I wonder why it could have ended up influencing the Christians and yet seems to have little effect on Judaism…

Perhaps the answer to your question might lie in considering some of the implications of your earlier paragraph?

In it there’s a kind of assumption that there was a split in Judaism between what was to become Christianity (which Christians see as the true Jewish paradigm) and ‘Rabbinic Judaism’ which is sometimes argued to be some newly-invented version taken up by those refusing to accept the Christian Saviour.

But was this ever the case? Was there a ‘paradigm-split’ or did Christianity involve a ‘new’ paradigm/set of paradigms ?

 

[Kaninchen]

Hmm… I do have to wonder how that happened.

I mean this whole thread is predicated on the notion that Early Christianity and…what did some folks call it… “Rabbinic Judaism” are kind of sister…or perhaps estranged cousin religions coming out of the already fractured kaleidoscope of Second Temple Judaism right?

. . . . .

But Zoroastarinism? I wonder why it could have ended up influencing the Christians and yet seems to have little effect on Judaism…

Perhaps the answer to your question might lie in considering some of the implications of your earlier paragraph?

In it there’s a kind of assumption that there was a split in Judaism between what was to become Christianity (which Christians see as the true Jewish paradigm) and ‘Rabbinic Judaism’ which is sometimes argued to be some newly-invented version taken up by those refusing to accept the Christian Saviour.

But was this ever the case? Was there a ‘paradigm-split’ or did Christianity involve a ‘new’ paradigm/set of paradigms? [Even if some of them had been lying around in some old Jewish luggage from ancient travels ]

 

[jlhargus]

Well, let’s suppose I’m not really in the answering business and I’ll do the questioning and you do the heavy lifting? Does that suit?

While I don’t mind heavy lifting, when time permits, explaining my own faith to others. I will leave the heavy lifting to you concerning your faith.

So, we’ll put the rest of your post aside for awhile - because there’s a lot for me to question there but we need to extend our range of issues a little bit.

Right then, in the Temple sacrificial system what exactly was being atoned for? Were there alternative means of atonement for those specifics? What happened when there wasn’t a Temple?

Since this would require me to do the heavy work concerning your faith and since you already know, therefore lite work for you, I suggest you tell me.

 

[Kaninchen]

Since this would require me to do the heavy work concerning your faith and since you already know, therefore lite work for you, I suggest you tell me.

We’ll leave it until you have the time.

 

[Moses613]

Exactly, and the very fact that you do not recognize these things proves to us that you are a backdrop, vital to God’s plan of salvation in that, the Christ would come from you, but you are not the center of salvation. God does not regard the Jews more special than the Gentiles.

Well now I can’t resist joining the fray. Meltzer’s point was hardly that we do not “recognize these things.” I daresay there is as rich a theological literature in classical Jewish writings as anything you’ll find in another religion. Reward, punishment, the spiritual world and the afterlife are all things that are definitely commented upon in Jewish texts in a very comprehensive way. However, we emphasize action because actions speak louder than words (or privately held faith) and our moral/positive actions themselves arouse greater piety and faith toward God. Your contention that we are not the center of salvation is doubly wrong: firstly, because we do not believe in a fallen world that needs to be “saved,” but rather one where everyone carries a unique responsibility to do justice and good deeds. (Of course when the Messiah comes the world will exist on a much higher spiritual level than at present.) Secondly, any number of verses in the Tanakh can be marshaled (as I believe I have already done in previous threads) to show that GOD did appoint us as the spiritual center of the world. As God Himself said to Abraham: All the families of the world shall be blessed through you. Later people writing in Greek that claim otherwise are contradicted by God’s true prophets in the writings that Christians themselves are supposed to consider the inspired word of God.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Well now I can’t resist joining the fray. Meltzer’s point was hardly that we do not “recognize these things.” I daresay there is as rich a theological literature in classical Jewish writings as anything you’ll find in another religion. Reward, punishment, the spiritual world and the afterlife are all things that are definitely commented upon in Jewish texts in a very comprehensive way. However, we emphasize action because actions speak louder than words (or privately held faith) and our moral/positive actions themselves arouse greater piety and faith toward God. Your contention that we are not the center of salvation is doubly wrong: firstly, because we do not believe in a fallen world that needs to be “saved,” but rather one where everyone carries a unique responsibility to do justice and good deeds. (Of course when the Messiah comes the world will exist on a much higher spiritual level than at present.) Secondly, any number of verses in the Tanakh can be marshaled (as I believe I have already done in previous threads) to show that GOD did appoint us as the spiritual center of the world. As God Himself said to Abraham: All the families of the world shall be blessed through you. Later people writing in Greek that claim otherwise are contradicted by God’s true prophets in the writings that Christians themselves are supposed to consider the inspired word of God.

Your only proving my point. And we do not deny God chose you. Christianity is based off of Judaism. We share all the same prophets (besides those in the New Testament). Of course God chose you. And indeed, God still has a plan for your people. But you are not special in the sense that you are above others. You are sinners too, like all of us. God chose your people so the Messiah could come into the world. So that the world could be reconciled to God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Lord.

 

[meltzerboy]

Your only proving my point. And we do not deny God chose you. Christianity is based off of Judaism. We share all the same prophets (besides those in the New Testament). Of course God chose you. And indeed, God still has a plan for your people. But you are not special in the sense that you are above others. You are sinners too, like all of us. God chose your people so the Messiah could come into the world. So that the world could be reconciled to God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Lord.

It is never claimed in Judaism that Jews are “above others.” What is claimed–similar to Christianity–is that we have a mission, a responsibility to lead people and the world toward holiness by means of example, which is not, however, based on conversion to Judaism. This may sound a bit arrogant but it is not meant to be so.