When did executing heretics become immoral?

[ltwin]

Well, it would have been nice if the Pope in his ecclesiastical role would have communicated with the Pope in his temporal role and told him this, “Temporal Pope, please stop executing heretics. We can find a better solution.” However, for whatever reason “ecclesiastical pope” never asked “temporal pope” to change the rules.

Probably because they were the same person and they agreed with each other.

 

[phil19034]

Well, it would have been nice if the Pope in his ecclesiastical role would have communicated with the Pope in his temporal role and told him this, “Ecclesiastical Pope, please stop executing heretics. We can find a better solution.” However, for whatever reason “ecclesiastical pope” never asked “temporal pope” to change the rules.

I agree 100% with this, but they didn’t because they listened to the so called “experts” and “advisers” of the day.

 

[MichaelP3]

I agree 100% with this, but they didn’t because they listened to the so called “experts” and “advisers” of the day.

So do you say these “experts and advisors” had any " influence " on the Pope?

 

[phil19034]

@michaelP3 of course so called experts have had influence on past Popes,
but like some so called experts today have influence on Pope Francis.

The whole purpose of the College of Cardinals and in part the Curia is to
advise the Pope.

When the Papal States existed, there were secular advisors too (military,
political, legal, law enforcement, economic, etc)

 

[MichaelP3]

When the Papal States existed, there were secular advisors too (military,

political, legal, law enforcement, economic, etc)

So you say this "advisory councils " had no effect on the Pope “being Pope” and the temporal ruler of the Papal States.

I do realise we are kinda off topic. But have you ever thought exactly when Papal Inafalibilty was declared? Pretty interesting time in Catholic history? Rome besieged, Papal influence very much deminished ( actually the Papal States and ANY temporal power lost) and what’s left. Doesn’t take a genius to see. Anyway… (Google it)

So what are we saying now. Who should get the blame for doing these horrendous acts? The state, the Pope or the “people”. Fact is, people did die a very bad death! Is it just one of those things?

 

[phil19034]

Who should get the blame for doing these horrendous acts? The state, the Pope or the “people”

All three, but not The Church.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Phil!

Have you considered that Jesus was not afraid of death but that His turmoil proceeded from His Knowledge that even though He would go through Isaiah’s Suffering Servant’s experience and even though He would Willingly give up His human life, man would still not Believe, in spite of His Resurrection?:

31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead. (St. Luke)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think that he is caught in a time warp–that place where reality, history, actuality, and revision is messed into a confused state.

I’ve have still not seen a reply to definitions of terms–I was hoping that we could engage it from that perspective and be able to put it to rest. His not having any…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

There are two distinct points that fails to be taken into account:

Church and state – this no longer applies.

The Church did not cease rejecting heresy.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Michael!

…not only that, but these “judgment” followed prolonged and exhaustive periods of discovery… sometimes going into years of “house arrest,” and other novelties–it was not a thumb down and he/she is burnt at the stake or thrown into prison for several years till they confessed/recanted.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Phil, did you know that people of goodwill gathered together at state sponsored hangings or guillotine executions?

Roman’s did not only lend an ear but their eyes, hands, and shouts as they watched people being slaughtered “for the nation.”

Scalping was a genuine practice… and there was once a guy who would impale his enemies (which could be his own siblings on stakes); can’t remember if this was the same guy but there was a lord who would pull out the lungs of his victims… then we have the US government’s drug trails (in the near past); it is the human experience… some in the Church have gotten caught up in it due to several factors; one of these factors was the Church-state culture… another factor was familiar affiliation (power, politics, wealth).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Phil, we have come so far… it is doubtful that anyone mobs will search out “heresy” or any other religious wrong (other than Islam where all infidels are to be killed); as for seeking those who are pro-life, believe in marriage as a Holy Sacrament and for the purpose of one man and one woman bringing forth life, did you not witness the past administrations persecution of Catholics and the pretense “civil liberty” defense that has been persecuting Christians that refuse to engage in the death culture?

…they are not using fire and brimstone; yet, they are burning down the house, nonetheless!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…and you keep missing where Rome was the most lenient of the persecutions and that even when the Church was accepted as a separate state, she was subject to the rulers around her.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…and would it not be nice to look into the numbers… and the time stamps?

Errors of the past should not be errors of the present and future.

Yet, claiming a suffering of a few in the long long past while ignoring the suffering of the millions upon millions in the not so long past and in the present, itself, seems like a hidden (well not so hidden) agenda.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[XndrK]

Just for the record, “X was bad” is not refuted by “Y was worse”. That seems to be the main body of your argument.

I’m a diehard Catholic, to be clear, but you’re committing a logical fallacy and need to back up. Just saying.

 

[jcrichton]

But beating a dead horse till he is dead, does that make for a rational argument?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[twf]

To be fair, many Protestant leaders also supported the execution of heretics. Lutherans executing Anabaptists for example…

 

[godisgood77]

It was always immoral…but the Church was primitive and wrong in its mindset. Fortunately, over time the Church came to a better understanding of the truth and stopped the immoral practice of murdering those people.

 

[steve-b]

The Papal States, officially the State of the Church (Italian: Stato della Chiesa, Italian pronunciation: ['stato 'della ki.'ɛza]; Latin: Status Ecclesiae), were territories in the Italian Peninsula under the sovereign direct rule of the pope, from the 8th century until 1870.

Look at Vatican city today. It is a country within a country. Does the Vatican execute anyone? No

Re: the time period you are speaking of

It was decided that the state isn’t to charge someone with heresy because that’s not their expertise. The Church is the vehicle for that decision.

The Church will investigate and if warranted, declare someone a heretic. The guilty person will always have a chance to recant. But If they don’t, the state also had an interest in that person. That’s why they were turned over to the state. The state then tried them for heresy. A crime in that time in history, heresy was equal to treason. It caused division and many times serious division within the state. The Church doesn’t/didn’t execute anyone. The state OTOH prosecuted someone for heresy, and if the state deemed it necessary, the state executes someone as an enemy of the state. That’s the order the law took in those days.

Today, pope Francis says, capital punishment isn’t necessary. Criminals can spend their life behind bars. Can he force a state or country from executing criminals? No

 

[godisgood77]

The Church is the people… the Church has made mistakes in the past and will make mistakes in the future. Hopefully, we get better at admitting fault and correcting the mistakes.