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pnewton
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That is the question, isn’t it? On the parish level, one can only do what one can do. The only places that actually have options to weigh are those with an abundance of resources.
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bobballen_18
Guest
I want to jump on that - “that is not to say that this is right, but rather, simply factually accurate.” So we may have different opinions on whether this actually is “right” or not. But just because something is “factually accurate” doesn’t give one a license to simply accept that fact and move on, especially when one believes (as I do) that there is something better for which we should be striving. I understand that most people (well, the vast majority of Catholics) don’t have the necessary skills/education in the field of Sacred Music to facilitate a change - and in this sense, you’re right, things aren’t going to change anytime soon. Again I say though, this isn’t a good reason to just give up and say “it is what it is”. I think it is perfectly okay, and indeed, right, for those who CAN make a difference and/or have (at least some of) the skills necessary to facilitate change to do so.
This is why I often post in threads relating to sacred music. Not necessarily because I think I know it all or that I think every single word I say is guaranteed to be “right” (though obviously I believe it all to be true currently or else I wouldn’t be saying it), but simply to present the side with which I stand and make people think whether their position is really in line with the Church’s official stance. And by official stance, I don’t mean the state of matters right now - I mean based on Church documents and the Church’s tradition as a whole.
Again, I don’t think you’re entirely wrong about this, but I still don’t think one should just stand by and let things go the way they are going. So what if attendance rates are low? Who are we to say that just because attendance is low, those who are attending wouldn’t appreciate, say, Gregorian chant and polyphony?
I think I agree with that all there. In terms of Sacred Music - indeed, due to the low percentage of Catholics willing to proceed with promoting Gregorian Chant (and polyphony), I totally agree that if any change (for the better) does come about, it likely will not be particularly noticeable until a couple generations from now. But now is when (I believe) we must lay the framework for that to happen! We shouldn’t just accept that things are the way they are. I mean, sure we have to realize what the state of things are in reality - but once we have assessed the situation, we DO something about it if need be, we don’t just accept it! I understand that some people aren’t as “fired up” as me about (sacred) music, and in some sense (but not completely) that is okay - we all have our different interests. All I am trying to propose here is that we shouldn’t just be okay with something that is at odds with Church documents. Fine if you can’t make any immediate contributions to change things, and fine if you don’t understand/know what the official Church documents/teachings say on the matter - just know that is one of the purposes of my posting on the matter - to add to the discussion.
I’ll gladly take it, for now!
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bobballen_18
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I think that is being a little unfair - I did not say any of that. I am sure you are referring to my comment “I think it is best to err on the side of tradition in this instance - that is, tried and true practices which have been known to be effective, and which countless saints have known.” While I suppose I can see how one could misinterpret my post in the way you did, I certainly did not claim that the saints were only holy because of the music they experienced at Mass. My intention in bringing up the saints here was to call to mind the beautiful fact that when we do experience music in this way (I have also used this “thought experiment” when talking about the attraction of the EF Mass), the way the Church actually prefers and holds as the ideal, then we are experiencing the same things that many (no, probably not all, but I am sure many!) saints experienced. That was my only intention.
Then I’m sure someone will say “but what about the ones who experienced terrible music” and then someone will say “I’m sure they didn’t complain about it” and all that. Whatever. I’m just trying to make the case (I feel like I’m repeating myself in my posts…lol) that the Church has preferences and ideals with regards to Sacred Music, for which I believe we should all be striving.
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HelenRose
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Unless one is quite self-confident it is easy to lose heart when one half of the congregation complains because your music is boring and old and “why do you want to go backwards and use Latin anyway” and the other half complains because you are not playing their idea of “sacred” music .
One advantage of not getting paid, I just smile and say, “The job is open if you want it.”
Actually I am exaggerating. There are only a handful of people on both sides of the question who complain. Most everyone is glad that there are people who care enough to give the time and talent and they do say thank you from time to time.
I have little or no use for complainers.
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ProVobis
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You have good points, but from a lot of posts I’ve read it seems many don’t want any music at all, that it adds nothing to Mass so why even bother with these musical committees. They’re at best tolerable. Even hymns that they like tend to get overplayed so the faster they’re obsoleted the better. I know I might be overexaggerating a little bit but is music the main reason why Catholics attend Mass? I tend to think a Protestant would be more looking forward for an hour of singing anything at his service than a Catholic would.
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pianistclare
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AMEN.
Most parishes don’t actually WANT trained liturgical musicians.
THEY DON’T. Because they don’t want to pay a living wage. And musicians can make money elsewhere.
People tend to compare the awe inspiring classical Mass with the worst funky guitar by an elderly nun Mass.
Apples and oranges. I don’t know ONE priest who would simply sit down and wait for the 20 minute Sanctus to finish. They just wouldn’t. Those Masses were composed for Monarchs. Not anyone like you and I.
Like children, many Catholics dream of marrying prince charming, and having a big ol pipe organ and prince charming playing some grand composition.
Not gonna happen.
Not even on the radar of most parishes.
When did guitar become popular? When some kid agreed to play a few notes for free.
This whole topic makes my blood boil.
I don’t know many musicians beyond the published ones and those making CD’s for the big companies that can earn a living. but boy, everyone in the cheap seats has something to say about them.
Liturgy experts. Meh.
There are plenty of fine musicians in the pews. They won’t be abused by the people who criticize every note or the finance committee that think it’s “easy”.
I’m MUCH rather be the Music Director. But the Director of Religious Education is the title that pays my bills.
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Xantippe
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Apologies for not having read the whole thread, but there’s no reason why very serious music can’t be played on a guitar. Here’s a musician playing Pachelbel’s Canon in D on a classical guitar:
youtube.com/watch?v=jXC9tuumjiA
The problem with guitar in church isn’t that the guitar is inherently inappropriate, it’s that the skill level of the people performing is inappropriate and inappropriate pieces are chosen.
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
I presume that guitars became a lot more popular after the Second Vatican Council due to the misinterpretations and craze in the Church. It was probably present prior to this, but got much more common after the Council.
I, personally, enjoy the pipe organ at Mass. It’s the only instrument that helps me to sing along and understand what is being sung since it supports the hymns better. Every other instrument muddles the words and has difficult melodies to follow. I can’t imagine what my parish’s Latin chant would sound like with a guitar.
I, personally, enjoy the pipe organ at Mass. It’s the only instrument that helps me to sing along and understand what is being sung since it supports the hymns better. Every other instrument muddles the words and has difficult melodies to follow. I can’t imagine what my parish’s Latin chant would sound like with a guitar.
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pianistclare
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I guess you’ve never been at a church with a lousy organ and an inept organist. Having an organ doesn’t guarantee quality liturgical music.
And organ music is about as muddled as one can get at times. Either parish values good musicians or people have alot to gripe about. If a musician is skilled he’s showing off. If he’s
Not then he’s a Vatican II problem.
Crazy. Crazy.������
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bobballen_18
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This is the attitude I plan to always be working to change!
Personally, when I compare what I tend to call “authentic sacred music” with its opposite, I don’t have the “awe-inspiring classical Mass” at the top of the spectrum - I always have Gregorian chant at the top, followed by Renaissance style polyphony. This follows the outline by Pius X in Tra le Sollecitudini. I believe that, while similar to the fact that it is very possible for good intentions being behind a guitar being played at Mass, there most certainly can be good intentions behind a “classical Mass”, and both of those could certainly be beautiful - but neither are the ideals.
Yeah I hate it that this is what a lot of people think. To be fair I think this is often applied in both extremes - both for “guitar Masses” and also for traditional music such as organ/chant/polyphony…but again, this is another erroneous line of thought which I hope I can help change during my lifetime.
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Confiteor_Deo
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My old parish had one organist that was quite lousy. I think she was so used to the piano that she didn’t know how to play the organ anymore. It was still an improvement from the piano & guitar that they normally used which were played just as poorly.
It would be naïve to believe an organ being used at Mass must equal acceptable church music since it can be abused or poorly played like other instruments, not to mention the singing that could be simply atrocious. However, it certainly is a good start. The organ is the best instrument to go with the human voice since it can maintain a note and can have little pauses for breath. It also doesn’t have certain emotions attached to it, so to speak.
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pnewton
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Something to consider is that with the current Pope, it is hard to imagine any sort of effort to spend more money to improve liturgical music, especially the huge sums that pipe organs require.
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ProVobis
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Music as we know it is more of a local or national thing. More universal would be something along the likes of Jubilate Deo, which the Vatican has already spent money on (I’m sure) without the success it was hoping for.
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HelenRose
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Beautiful.
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Elizium23
Guest
This requirement for mediocre music in liturgy is killing the tastes of the faithful and the wills of would-be musicians. It’s nice that you show concern that some types of music (the very types encouraged and exhorted by Holy Mother Church to be given “pride of place” in the sacred liturgy) are Just Too Hard to do properly, and that programming easier music would ease the burden on church musicians. But that’s precisely the wrong attitude. That is like saying that beautiful architecture is Too Hard and Too Expensive for your parish, and so we won’t have to raise as much money to build that church building we’ve been wanting. That is like saying that sacred vessels of gold and silver are Too Fancy and Too Expensive for your humble tastes, and a nice cedar cup and wooden bowl are fine for carrying the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
When we constantly set the bar lower and lower, we end up with a situation like American public schools: mediocrity abounds! There are no losers because nobody wins! Children grow up as indoctrinated vassals of the State, useless for any higher calling or meaningful leadership.
No, this is completely wrong. We bring our finest to the Lord and the Mass is the pinnacle of human existence. If we do not get it right in the sacred liturgy then we might as well not even bother. Save the Liturgy, Save the World.
That is not to say that every Mass needs to be a Mozartian concert. There is a spectrum of music in the treasury of the Church, there are simple chants and easy polyphony that can be implemented by people of lower skill, and directors of music should recognize the unique talents of each ensemble and assign work appropriately. However, every director of music should be s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g those talents. They should be PUSHING for excellence. I have been in far too many choirs where we tore through a rehearsal and as long as nobody bombed horribly we were A-OK for that Sunday. Then there are a precious few directors I have had that demanded excellence from us and we strove to deliver. It is like night and day. I will admit that this type of director is rare and expensive, so not every parish will be blessed with one.
Have you ever seen “Stand and Deliver”? This film is a prime example of what a group of underachieving, at-risk people can do when properly guided and motivated. The same is true of any choir. With the correct pedagogy and direction, even a rag-tag crew of amateurs can sound sublime. And that sublimity is simply never gained singing Haugen and Haas.
When we constantly set the bar lower and lower, we end up with a situation like American public schools: mediocrity abounds! There are no losers because nobody wins! Children grow up as indoctrinated vassals of the State, useless for any higher calling or meaningful leadership.
No, this is completely wrong. We bring our finest to the Lord and the Mass is the pinnacle of human existence. If we do not get it right in the sacred liturgy then we might as well not even bother. Save the Liturgy, Save the World.
That is not to say that every Mass needs to be a Mozartian concert. There is a spectrum of music in the treasury of the Church, there are simple chants and easy polyphony that can be implemented by people of lower skill, and directors of music should recognize the unique talents of each ensemble and assign work appropriately. However, every director of music should be s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g those talents. They should be PUSHING for excellence. I have been in far too many choirs where we tore through a rehearsal and as long as nobody bombed horribly we were A-OK for that Sunday. Then there are a precious few directors I have had that demanded excellence from us and we strove to deliver. It is like night and day. I will admit that this type of director is rare and expensive, so not every parish will be blessed with one.
Have you ever seen “Stand and Deliver”? This film is a prime example of what a group of underachieving, at-risk people can do when properly guided and motivated. The same is true of any choir. With the correct pedagogy and direction, even a rag-tag crew of amateurs can sound sublime. And that sublimity is simply never gained singing Haugen and Haas.
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Phemie
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We suffer from terminal “I’m sure God won’t mind.” That’s the response to everything, including “You can’t change the words of the Gloria!” and “You can’t sing a hymn instead of the Psalm.”
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John_Lazarus
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Trad_Catholic27
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Vatican 2 forbid any modern music in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Because Chant allows us to focus on God and transcends all other forms of music. Also the Novus Oro Mass must be said in Latin which is also stated in Vatican 2.
Modern instruments belong in concerts and other worldly entertainments
Modern instruments belong in concerts and other worldly entertainments
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Phemie
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Well, fix it, dear Henry, dear Henry…
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pianistclare
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I don’t think I suggested that it couldn’t.
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