When did Jesus know He was also God?

[Mimi]

My priest said in a sermon that many scripture scholars agree that Jesus knew He was God when He was baptized by John. (I was out of town and did not hear this myself, but I trust I got the info right from DH).

Was this before or after He read the scripture in the temple and said “… I AM.” John 8:58?

And did He not realize it in the Temple, teaching the elders as a boy (when the Holy Family traveled to Jerusalem)?
“Didn’t you know I was about my Father’s business?” (sorry, I did not provide book, ch, vs)

Can anyone provide some links to Catholic articles or books on this subject? An article from This Rock would be nice. I already tried searching there, but this is a more specific question than just “Was Jesus Divine?”

Many thanks in advance!

God bless,
Mimi

 

[Verbum]

Hi Mimi,

The Trinity is three persons in one nature. The Incarnation of Jesus is one person in two natures. ONE PERSON. And that person is divine. The one person of Jesus always knew that he was God. But his divine knowledge is not of the same kind as his human knowledge. Human knowledge grows with the maturing of the brain, with experimentation and learning. Jesus’ experimental knowledge grew in the same way that our own knowledge grows. For example God knows what “red” means through his perfect, infinite knowledge, but he does not “experience” red. Just as he understands suffering but has never suffered. Jesus experimental knowledge grew, as our does. For example, he experienced suffering in a way that only humans can.

How this relates to his knowledge of his divine nature and also to his God-given mission and how he came to understand all this in a human way is out of my depth and possibly out of anybody’s depth. Let’s not forget that we call this the MYSTERY of the Incarnation. We shall never fully understand it, at least in this life.

That being said, it is misleading to say that Jesus had a thunderbolt revelation at his baptism and suddenly realized that he was God. The bible says that he grew in wisdom before God and before men. This, to me, says, gradualness.

You may want to read an article on Jesus’ knowledge in the Catholic Encyclopedia : newadvent.org/cathen/08675a.htm

Verbum

 

[Melkite_Sword]

We know that he knew it atleast by the time he was 12, when he was in the temple. Mary and Joseph found him, he said he is in his fathers house, recognising his own divinity, being the only begotten son means sharing God’s nature.

Peace

 

[StrawberryJam]

He may have known at a young age, but I think he had to know by the time of the first miracle at Cana. There you have some tangible evidence of divinity.

 

[Ron_Conte]

LAMENTABILI SANE
Pius X July 3, 1907
by this general decree, they are condemned and proscribed…
35. Christ did not always possess the consciousness of His Messianic dignity.

Jesus always possessed a conscious understanding that He is the Messiah; the opposite opinion is condemned. However, we may interpret this consciousness in his human mind to be in accord with the natural ability of his finite human mind; so as early as his mind was capable of understanding that truth, at that time and thereafter he knew that truth.

Also Jesus, in his human nature, had the Beatific Vision of God from his Incarnation, so he also had knowledge from that source as well as from the usual sources of knowledge for the human mind (e.g. his mother teaching him).

 

[Fidelis]

My priest said in a sermon that many scripture scholars agree that Jesus knew He was God when He was baptized by John.

I wish priests would refrain from presenting speculative theology in sermons. When people hear things like this from the pulpit, they presume it reflects the teaching of the Church --which it does not.

Can anyone provide some links to Catholic articles or books on this subject? An article from This Rock would be nice. I already tried searching there, but this is a more specific question than just “Was Jesus Divine?”

Many thanks in advance!

God bless,
Mimi

This article from Catholic Culture handily refutes an earlier article which appeared in “The Priest” magazine in1993 which apparently promoted this nonsense. Hope that helps.

 

[FCEGM]

I wish priests would refrain from presenting speculative theology in sermons. When people hear things like this from the pulpit, they presume it reflects the teaching of the Church --which it does not…

AMEN!

This article from Catholic Culture handily refutes an earlier article which appeared in “The Priest” magazine in1993 which apparently promoted this nonsense. Hope that helps

The Catholic Culture site is a tremendous resource.

 

[Mimi]

AMEN!

The Catholic Culture site is a tremendous resource.

Thank you so much for all the replies.

I have learned quite a lot from Catholic Culture.org and am a regular financial supporter.

We tend to see more shades of, ah, unorthodoxy from time to time, even though liturgies are quite according to the GIRM (except holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer and priest leaving the sanctuary to shake hands with those in front at the sign of peace).

There is a faction of women who push for unorthodox ideas also, like contributing books by dissidents to the parish library.

Sometimes I feel like the “lone voice crying out in the desert” in my parish. I could migrate to another diocese/parish which is close by, but have decided to stick it out a while longer (it will be 30 years this fall).

God bless,
Mimi

 

[donanobis]

We know our faith by scripture AND tradition. Does anyone know if tradition includes handed down comments from others like the Coptics? I believe have read that the Coptic tradition states that Jesus healed others as a small child, sometimes by just being there physically present which would indicate divinity. Also, he walked into a temple and all the idols fell.

Perhaps I have the wrong interpretation of what is tradition? (and maybe have the incidents wrong as I didn’t clarify it online. I’m going by memory of what I thought I read).

thanks,

 

[Abu]

Fr William Most in The Consciousness Of Christ, Christendom Publications, 1980, shows that “reason concurs with what the documents of revelation and the Church have taught us, namely, that the human soul and mind of Jesus, from the first instant of its existence, enjoyed the Vision of God. In it Jesus could not help but see His own divinity, and have all knowledge available to Him, as it related to any matter to which He turned His attention. His consciousness was, therefore, fully in keeping with His two natures – human and divine – in one Divine Person.” (p 168).

Fr Most cites Karl Rahner and Raymond Brown among Catholics who misled many over the inerrancy of Scripture as taught by Pius XII and Vatican II, and over the self-knowledge of Christ.

 

[thomas_jd]

Common sense tells us that God always was aware that He is God!! Scholars use the response “I am” to tie the Trinity together.Jesus baptism by John wasn’t necessary as He never needed original sin to be removed. There are many , many erroneous statements made.

 

[spockrates]

Thank you so much for all the replies.

I have learned quite a lot from Catholic Culture.org and am a regular financial supporter.

We tend to see more shades of, ah, unorthodoxy from time to time, even though liturgies are quite according to the GIRM (except holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer and priest leaving the sanctuary to shake hands with those in front at the sign of peace).

There is a faction of women who push for unorthodox ideas also, like contributing books by dissidents to the parish library.

Sometimes I feel like the “lone voice crying out in the desert” in my parish. I could migrate to another diocese/parish which is close by, but have decided to stick it out a while longer (it will be 30 years this fall).

God bless,
Mimi

Blessings to you, Mimi!

I think that what is important is not as much when, but whether Jesus said He was God. The passage you cited is a clear indication that He did make such a claim.

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

(John 8:58-59)

He was saying two things, it seems: (1) He existed before Abraham was alive, and (2) He was the God who told Moses His name was I Am (or the uncreated and eternally self-existent God). Proof of this was the fact that the Jewish critics of Christ picked up stones to kill Him, as this was the penalty for a mere man claiming he was God.