When did Jesus know He was God?

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Elzee

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Our RCIA Director told our candidates and catechumens that Jesus gradually realized He was God as He matured in ‘age and wisdom’ as it says in Luke. Is this the correct application of this verse?

Everyone was very confused. For example, since Jesus is fully God and fully human, wouldn’t He know - somehow - at any age, that He was God?

Can anyone help? We couldn’t find anything to clarify this question in the CCC or the bible. Thank you!
 
Ah, the modernists in the RCIA are still mouthing this oh-so-trendy 60s view of Jesus?

Here is something from EWTN

A belief which is occasionally challenged, even today, is that Jesus knew that He was God. Some argue that Jesus grew in the knowledge that He was God, but was not born knowing this. As can be seen from the argument above about Jesus being truly and fully God from His conception, since Jesus was truly God knowing all things, He must have been born knowing all things, including that He is God. If He were born not knowing this, then He could not be God.

The only real objection to this belief is based on the human idea that a baby is born knowing virtually nothing. How, people ask, could Jesus be a baby and yet know that He is God? The answer is that it is just as easy for God to be a baby as it is for Him to be an adult man. In each case, the infinite God takes on a limited, weak human nature at the same time that He is infinite God.

Pope Pius XII taught, in his Encyclical Mystici Corporis (“The Mystical Body” - 1943): “By means of the Beatific Vision (the sight of God in Heaven), which He enjoyed from the time when he was received into the womb of the Mother of God, He has for ever and continuously had present to Him all the members of His mystical Body, and embraced them with His saving love.” (N.D. 661).

In other words Jesus possessed, in His human soul, the same immediate vision of God which all the saints and angels in heaven have. This means that Jesus was, at the same time, both a pilgrim on earth like us and a possessor of the immediate vision of God. Even His human nature is endowed with an abundance of supernatural gifts. He knows all things - past, present and future.
 
Elzee said:
Our RCIA Director told our candidates and catechumens that Jesus gradually realized He was God as He matured in ‘age and wisdom’ as it says in Luke. Is this the correct application of this verse?

Everyone was very confused. For example, since Jesus is fully God and fully human, wouldn’t He know - somehow - at any age, that He was God?

Can anyone help? We couldn’t find anything to clarify this question in the CCC or the bible. Thank you!
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I guess Jesus already knew He was God even since the start. After all, could God forget that He is God?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
The only real objection to this belief is based on the human idea that a baby is born knowing virtually nothing. How, people ask, could Jesus be a baby and yet know that He is God? The answer is that it is just as easy for God to be a baby as it is for Him to be an adult man. In each case, the infinite God takes on a limited, weak human nature at the same time that He is infinite God…
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There’s a subtle distinction between the reality of Jesus BEING God and Him KNOWING He (as a child) was God. The question here isn’t about His ‘being’, but about whether the immaturity of His human intellect (as a human child) placed any constraints on ‘knowing’ who He was.

We unfortunately try to answer this question based on an adult (human) concept of what it means to “know” something. A new-born child “knows” its mother; and can very quickly distinguish the touch and voice of other people he/she “knows” from those he doesn’t know. But it’s absurd to ask whether this same child can process the existential concept of “knowing” who they are. BUT!! – this limitation in their intellect doesn’t prevent them from loving perfectly, which is the ultimate character of God (Deus Caritas Est).
 
Elzee said:
Our RCIA Director told our candidates and catechumens that Jesus gradually realized He was God as He matured in ‘age and wisdom’ as it says in Luke. Is this the correct application of this verse?

Everyone was very confused. For example, since Jesus is fully God and fully human, wouldn’t He know - somehow - at any age, that He was God?

Can anyone help? We couldn’t find anything to clarify this question in the CCC or the bible. Thank you!
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Post #5 on a previous thread here references the pertinent passages from the CCC. It is a beautiful and intricate explanation.
 
Luke 2:49
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

at least by age 12.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the** glory which I had with thee before the world was**.

But, he did remember the glory he had before he came to earth. So, his rememberance, would have to be based on what point a baby is self aware – when the baby recognises his own name and responds to it.

If there is one consceousness in Jesus than when the baby is self aware. If two consceousness in Jesus then he never forgot that he is God.

So, did Jesus have one or two consceousness?
 
Note that when Mary visited Elizabeth, Luke 1:39-45, John was about six months old and Jesus a few days to a couple of weeks. Yet John lept at the Divine Presence; so was presumably aware of it. And Jesus freed John from Original Sin at that point; so was presumably aware of his nature and power.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Luke 2:49
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

at least by age 12.
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I just wanted to second your comment, Jesus seems to have first articulated his knowledge of his own divinity to Joseph and Mary when he was 12 years old. (Luke 2:41-50)

The Catechism of the Catholic Churchsays:534. The finding of Jesus in the temple is the only event that breaks the silence of the Gospels about the hidden years of Jesus. Here Jesus lets us catch a glimpse of the mystery of his total consecration to a mission that flows from his divine sonship: “Did you not know that I must be about my Father’s work?” …
 
When Jesus was 12 if you had asked Him if the equation E=MC2 was true or not would he know the answer?

I have always thought that Jesus always knew all spiritual things and even questions like E=MC2 being true or not.

But I think NON SPIRITUAL things like E=MC2 he subordinated and did not make requisition of them so he could participate in our humanity.

In other words of course Jesus who is God Knows all things and could have at a young age done carpenter work without Joseph teaching Him how–but He subordinated that knowledge and learn carpentry from His earthly Father Joseph land leartned carpentry like any of the rest of us would.

I also think thart if Jesus ever had a SPIRITUAL NEED OR REASON to requisition non spiritual knowledge that He did so perfectly in accordance with the Will of God.

Is my understanding correct? I do not intend to imply that Jesus was schizophrenic–he had one divine and human personality and intellect. Is that true?
 
Joe_Kelley said:
…And Jesus freed John from Original Sin at that point; so was presumably aware of his nature and power.
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Sorry, I don’t men to hijack this thread but your statement just jumped out at me. I admit I am a fairly recent convert and probably not the best of Catholics but this is a new doctrine for me. Are you saying that the less than one-month-old fetal Jesus was consciously able to perform an act of redemption? Is this taught by the Church as an infallible doctrine of faith? I realize that Christ is fully God and fully man but it seams to me that lucid thought would not be possible by a developing brain not much larger than a peanut. It could be argued that Christ always possessed the mind of God but unless his human brain was fully developed and self-aware how would he be able to access his divine mind?

The whole idea of consciousness in an unborn child is troubling to me. If unborn children are capable of lucid thought why can’t we remember our time in the womb? Sorry, the Idea sounds more like superstition than truth to me.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Note that when Mary visited Elizabeth, Luke 1:39-45, John was about six months old and Jesus a few days to a couple of weeks. Yet John lept at the Divine Presence; so was presumably aware of it. And Jesus freed John from Original Sin at that point; so was presumably aware of his nature and power.
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Could you please share the Catholic doctrine or teaching that Christ free John from Original Sin. I cannot locate and not one priests (that I have discussed this with) can provide any wisdom or teaching concerning this matter. Merry Christmas
 
CRW said:
Could you please share the Catholic doctrine or teaching that Christ free John from Original Sin. I cannot locate and not one priests (that I have discussed this with) can provide any wisdom or teaching concerning this matter. Merry Christmas
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I don’t know if it is defined dogma, but I have heard it said many times that John was freed from Original Sin when he leaped for joy in his mother’s womb.

Here is the Scripture that tells what the angel said to Zechariah regarding the son that was to be born of him and Elizabeth:

Luke 1:15 “…for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.”

That sounds pretty straightforward to me.
 
Dorothy said:
I don’t know if it is defined dogma, but I have heard it said many times that John was freed from Original Sin when he leaped for joy in his mother’s womb.

Here is the Scripture that tells what the angel said to Zechariah regarding the son that was to be born of him and Elizabeth:

Luke 1:15 “…for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.”

That sounds pretty straightforward to me.
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The Blessed Mother, according to Catholic teachings, was the only one born without original sin, if my understanding is correct. I understand and know of the reference but the Church has not defined it as being born free of original sin.
 
PyroAlchemist said:
Sorry, I don’t men to hijack this thread but your statement just jumped out at me. I admit I am a fairly recent convert and probably not the best of Catholics but this is a new doctrine for me. Are you saying that the less than one-month-old fetal Jesus was consciously able to perform an act of redemption? Is this taught by the Church as an infallible doctrine of faith? I realize that Christ is fully God and fully man but it seams to me that lucid thought would not be possible by a developing brain not much larger than a peanut. It could be argued that Christ always possessed the mind of God but unless his human brain was fully developed and self-aware how would he be able to access his divine mind?

The whole idea of consciousness in an unborn child is troubling to me. If unborn children are capable of lucid thought why can’t we remember our time in the womb? Sorry, the Idea sounds more like superstition than truth to me.
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There’s an old thread about this, found here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103995&highlight=john+baptist

Also, check out the Navarre Bible commentary for today’s reading, the Visitation.
 
CRW said:
The Blessed Mother, according to Catholic teachings, was the only one born without original sin, if my understanding is correct. I understand and know of the reference but the Church has not defined it as being born free of original sin.
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The Blessed Mother was free from original sin from the first moment of her conception. That is why she is called the Immaculate Conception.

The understanding (I’ll take your word for it that the Church has not definitely defined it, I think that way too) is that John did have original sin when he was conceived in his mother’s womb, but that he was “filled with the Holy Spirit” before he was born.

So, if that is correct, it does not take away from the fact that Mary was free from original sin from the first moment of her conception. That is unique to our Blessed Mother.
 
I think the idea of John’s baptism in the womb is ancient tradition [small t] not defined teaching. But such tradition does carry a weight of its own in belief.

Note that the Church celebrates only three birthdays

Jesus - 25 December

Mary - 8 September

John the Baptist - 24 June

This is because of thetaht tradition that these were the only ones born without Original Sin.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
I think the idea of John’s baptism in the womb is ancient tradition [small t] not defined teaching. But such tradition does carry a weight of its own in belief.

Note that the Church celebrates only three birthdays

Jesus - 25 December

Mary - 8 September

John the Baptist - 24 June

This is because of thetaht tradition that these were the only ones born without Original Sin.
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Sorry, this off-topic, but there are important distinctions here that might be missed with this simple closing sentence. Both Jesus and Mary were conceived in the womb without original sin. Whereas, John the Baptist was conceived through a grace from God (his mother was barren and in old age), but he was nonetheless conceived through normal human means with the stain of Adam. However, tradition (as you say - small ‘t’) offers the view that he was cleansed from the stain of original sin at the Annunciation – his baptism in the womb.
 
Is there a church doctrine teaching that Mary is the ONLY individual concieved without original sin. I know the Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that she was concieved free from OS. But I don’t remember if there is a teaching that limits God to not offering such a grace to others. Not all things God has done is revealed to us.

Obviously Adam, Eve, and Jesus were also concieved without Original Sin.
 
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