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Nine_Two
Guest
But as I said, they didn’t always. Both the priesthood and the sacrifice existed long before the Temple.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Except they worshiped God in the synagogues as well. Both in the past, and at present. There are references to worship of him away from the temple throughout scripture.
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gazelam
Guest
The only reason I have any knowledge of this issue is due to a book I have titled “The Aaronic Priesthood through the Centuries” published in 1964 by Deseret Book (LDS owned publisher) There easily could be newer scholarship on this topic. But anyway…
The High Priest office became illegitimate when the righteous High Priest Onias III was forced out of the office while Israel was under Syrian domination. Jason, a brother of Onias III, did not have the same righteous inclinations as Onias III and procured the High Priest office for himself by paying 590 talents of silver to the ruler, who in turn forced out Onias III and installed Jason. Three years later Menelaus offered 890 talents of silver to procure the office of High Priest. Menelaus didn’t have that money and sold the sacred templke articles used by the priests in their temple service. Onias III reprimanded Menelaus for his actions and Menelaus had Onias III executed in 171 BC. This is when the High Priest office became apostate.
I’m not aware of Christ caling into question the legitimacy of the High Priest either.
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gazelam
Guest
It appears (to me anyway) that the Old Law was operational while Jesus was ministering prior to his cruxification. For example, the ten lepers were told to go to a priest (that would be a direct male descendent of Aaron) to be declared clean (Luke 17:12-14 KJV)
Also, when Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well he told her “…for salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22 KJV)
The Old Law was fulfilled in Christ’s cruxification and resurrection and was then OBE.
I respectfully disagree… The Jewish High Priest was the head of the LESSER or Aaronic priesthood while Christ is the head of the GREATER or Melchizedec Priesthood. Hebrews 7:11 KJV states “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?”
Since this verse clearly shows two distinct priesthood orders there could have been two distinct legitimate high priests, each fulfilling his appointed duty pertaining to his specific priesthood order. Does that make sense?
As a doctrinal tidbit of the LDS faith, Mormons believe that Mormon Prophet is the head Melchizedek priesthood and the Mormon Presiding Bishop fills the role as head of the Aaronic priesthood, and if the appropriate descendent of Aaron were found and were living righteously he would have a right to take his place as the head of the Aaronic priesthood.
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Nine_Two
Guest
You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t take LDS sources seriously when it comes to the charge of apostasy, especially when what you describe is Simony.
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patrick457
Guest
Yes - with the Tabernacle, and then the sanctuary at Shiloh.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Except they predate even those, the priesthood not by much, but sacrifice significantly so (Being first laid down in Genesis).
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patrick457
Guest
We don’t exactly know when synagogues (the term originally described the congregation that gathered in them - kind of like ‘church’) were first devised - it could have been from as early as the period Babylonian exile or some time afterwards - but when the Temple still stood the synagogue were more like a place of ‘unofficial’ worship. I know the analogy is a bit off, but think of it as: Temple sacrifice = Mass / synagogue service = private devotion + community meeting.
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aicirt
Guest
What about the Ark of the Covenant? This was once housed in the Temple in Jerusalem. Again, I’m asking if the Temple is rebuilt, what is suppose to go in it? Is it just to be an empty building? According to my Jewish friend, sacrifice can’t be made except at the Temple. Can you have another Temple without having the Ark?
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patrick457
Guest
And then again sacrifice was the priests’ most important job. Yes, while in much earlier times (at least according to Genesis) anyone could conceivably offer a qorban to God when he felt like it, as time went on it became the exclusive domain of the priest to perform the actual oblation.
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patrick457
Guest
Well, the second Temple built after the Babylonian captivity did not have the Ark.
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Pilgrim1701
Guest
+1 Seems it was used for sacrifice, and Christ went along with those traditions while he was on earth, up to the point of the Last Supper, Crucifixion and Ressurection.Well, the second Temple built after the Babylonian captivity did not have the Ark.
I am always somewhat suspicious of their motivations for a 3rd temple…
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farallon
Guest
Hebrews are only allowed to sacrifice at the temple in Jerusalem as stated in Deut. 12:13-14.
“8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes, 9 for you have not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance that the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But when you go over the Jordan and live in the land that the Lord your God is giving you to inherit, and when he gives you rest from all your enemies around, so that you live in safety, 11 then to the place that the Lord your God will choose, to make his name dwell there, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution that you present, and all your finest vow offerings that you vow to the Lord. 12 And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male servants and your female servants, and the Levite that is within your towns, since he has no portion or inheritance with you. 13 Take care that you do not offer your burnt offerings at any place that you see, 14 but at the place that the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I am commanding you.”
Preceding that, God commanded the Jews to destroy the temples and alters in the High Places that the previous inhabitants in Israel sacrificed at.
“12 “These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. 2 You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3 You shall tear down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire. You shall chop down the carved images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place. 4 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way. 5 But you shall seek the place that the Lord your God will choose out of all your tribes to put his name and make his habitation[a] there. There you shall go, 6 and there you shall bring your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution that you present, your vow offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock. 7 And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your households, in all that you undertake, in which the Lord your God has blessed you.”
In other places in the Old Testament, The Hebrews are mentioned sacrificing and worshiping at places other than the temple and they are admonished not to do that. During Josiah’s reforms, he once again destroyed the alters in the High Places and restored exclusive sacrifice at the Temple in Jerusalem.
“8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes, 9 for you have not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance that the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But when you go over the Jordan and live in the land that the Lord your God is giving you to inherit, and when he gives you rest from all your enemies around, so that you live in safety, 11 then to the place that the Lord your God will choose, to make his name dwell there, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution that you present, and all your finest vow offerings that you vow to the Lord. 12 And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male servants and your female servants, and the Levite that is within your towns, since he has no portion or inheritance with you. 13 Take care that you do not offer your burnt offerings at any place that you see, 14 but at the place that the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I am commanding you.”
Preceding that, God commanded the Jews to destroy the temples and alters in the High Places that the previous inhabitants in Israel sacrificed at.
“12 “These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. 2 You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3 You shall tear down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire. You shall chop down the carved images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place. 4 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way. 5 But you shall seek the place that the Lord your God will choose out of all your tribes to put his name and make his habitation[a] there. There you shall go, 6 and there you shall bring your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution that you present, your vow offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock. 7 And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your households, in all that you undertake, in which the Lord your God has blessed you.”
In other places in the Old Testament, The Hebrews are mentioned sacrificing and worshiping at places other than the temple and they are admonished not to do that. During Josiah’s reforms, he once again destroyed the alters in the High Places and restored exclusive sacrifice at the Temple in Jerusalem.
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YoungCatholic21
Guest
It was a political move done by Jewish sympathizers within Israel. The Romans appointed priests to the Jewish people, which of course was invalid. That’s why Caiphas went to the Romans to crucify Our Lord, and why Annas was the true high priest.
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patrick457
Guest
Actually, they were both appointed by Rome. When the Hasmonean priest-‘kings’ were defeated by Herod he appointed people into the position. Of course after Herod died his domain was split amongst his sons. Archelaus’ share came under administration by a Roman prefect after he was deposed in AD 6 and became Judaea Province. Of course the prefect also got the power to appoint people into the high priesthood.
Annas’ (or as per Josephus, Ananus’) family was a favorite pool of candidates: five sons of his served as high priest and Caiaphas (the one with the longest term of office: AD 18-36) was his son-in-law. Many other high priests during the Roman occupation served only for more or less a year before being replaced. Annas was the second longest in term (6-15); in the three years between his and Caiaphas’ terms at least three people occupied the office.
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YoungCatholic21
Guest
If that is true, then was there a valid high priest at all during the times of Our Lord?
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patrick457
Guest
Depends on what you mean by ‘valid’. After the exile, the priestly line which held the office for most of the Persian and Hellenistic periods traced their ancestry to Zadok. By the time of the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucids, Jonathan ‘Apphus’ Maccabee (who were priests, but not of the Zadokite line) took the high priestly office, initiating the Hasmonean line. Soon the Hasmonean high priests also began to wield political authority over the now-independent Judea, taking the title of basileus ‘king’. This dynasty of priest-kings would continue until Herod the Great had Antigonus executed in 37 BC. Herod first had a guy named Hanameel (who, while being a priest, was neither a Hasmonean nor a Zadokite) become high priest after Antigonus, then decided to put the Hasmonean Aristobulus III into the office (he was related to Herod by marriage, Herod’s wife Mariamne being his sister), only to change his mind soon and reinstate Hanameel afterwards. It was then that Herod (and soon, the Roman prefects and procurators) apparently decided to just appoint people into the position.
If you’re wondering where the Zadokites went after all this: Onias IV, son of Onias III, was originally the lawful heir to the office, but the elder Onias’ brother Jason eventually became the high priest in 175 BC with some help from Antiochus Epiphanes. He apparently expected Judah Maccabee’s revolt to aid him in getting the office he was supposed to inherit in the first place, but seeing as things did not go as he expected them to be, he went down to Egypt to seek aid against the Seleucids at their political enemies, the Ptolemies. Onias and the other Jews who travelled with him settled down at Leontopolis and built a temple of their own there. Apparently Onias thought that the temple in Jerusalem had been totally defiled and hoped that the new one he founded would be a fitting replacement for it, but the folks back in Palestine apparently did not accept his claims and considered it an illicit act.
So, if by ‘valid’ you mean ‘Zadokite’, you could say that the Jews in Palestine did not have a ‘valid’ high priest for more or less a couple of centuries by then. Not to mention that the Maccabees are to blame for instituting a new line which overthrew the Zadokites out of office.
P.S. The hereditary Zadokite line in Judea pretty much ended with Jason. His two successors, Menelaus (c. 172/1-162/1 BC) and Alcimus (162/1-159 BC) were not related to the family. (Josephus says that Menelaus was Jason’s and the elder Onias’ brother, although 2 Maccabees 4:23 says that he is the brother of a different Simon, the one who denounced the elder Onias to Antiochus.) In fact, Menelaus and Jason had a bit of serious rivalry about who gets to be high priest.
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