When did kneelers start leaving the Catholic Parish?

[chrisb]

Why does the Pope need to remind us of the Biblical Roots of Kneeling and Prostrations?

Pope Benedict XVI Theology of Kneeling

 

[YoungTradCath]

We are in a confusing time in Catholicism. It is wrong to not have at least some sort of accommodation for kneeling, as kneeling is required in the GIRM. Some parishes decide they like to be “modern” and not make those accommodations, which I think is more than a little egotistical.

I suppose to cover myself, I must also say that some parishes don’t have the money to install kneelers. For the most part, I find that ridiculous, because it seems that the vast majority of new construction churches that don’t have kneelers cost an absurd amount of money to begin with. (Read: grey concrete boxes that for some reason cost more than $75 million)

 

[DeborahK]

I have been to quite a few Catholic Parish’s, and when there are not any kneelers, the churches are always very modern. I love the kneelers, so I have gone back to Churches with them. I feel it is a matter of reverence.

 

[YADA]

When did kneelers enter the church? Or pews?

In reality - pews came first - then the kneelers and all only common recently as I understand from my studies [recently - as in about the time of the invention of the printing press in Gutenberg’s day] …

You don’t require a kneeler to kneel …

The instuctions to kneel - do not say* "if kneelers are present - then kneel … "*

I kneel when instructed whether there are kneelers or not … and when that day comes that I am unable to kneel - I will not kneel …

This is like the requirement to attend Mass … we attend Mass on Sundays and Holy days becuase it is the “right” thing to do - because we love our Lord, Jesus Christ, beause we love God … it does not have to be convenient, it does not have to be a perfect fit into our busy lives - sometimes it is not convenient … but it is what we do … similarly - if one is sick or unable to meet the obligation to participate at Mass - one is excused - without reservation … it is not required …

So kneeler or not - we are required to kneel … missing a kneeler at your parish and desire to have one - you can bring a small pillow to kneel upon

 

[svid2]

Until the Protestant rebellion, there were no kneelers. You knelt on the floor. Kneeling is not supposed to be comfy. Do not kneel because kneelers are present, but because God is present.

 

[Joannm]

Until the Protestant rebellion, there were no kneelers. You knelt on the floor. Kneeling is not supposed to be comfy. Do not kneel because kneelers are present, but because God is present.

There were no pews either. You stood for Mass. Pews and kneelers are fairly recent.

BTW I have never been in a church in the United States that didn’t have kneelers. Guess I haven’t been around much.

 

[HonoraDominum]

When I was traveling this Thanksgiving holiday, I went to a Catholic church that had a small daily Mass chapel with no kneelers. After the Sanctus, a small handful of us knelt without kneelers, and that included both of us with chapel veils and the Schoenstatt sisters in attendance. It felt great to be in unity with those who felt reverence towards the blessed sacrament.

And actually, when I’m feeling penitent, I’ll kneel at my church’s terrazzo floors without the kneeler from the Sanctus to the reception of communion and offer up the discomfort for the sanctification of priests, so that they may have the strength to continually kneel in prayer for their sanctity and mine.

On a sidenote - One of my more memorable experiences at my parish was being blessed to witness the ceremony to bring a person into full communion with the Catholic church (they were Episcopalian, I believe) in the Extraordinary Form. There was a LOT of kneeling for the person, and at one point their legs got very shaky from the pain. I smiled, as I remember being a new Catholic and feeling those pains of new Catholic knee soreness. I also remember the first time I had to do something underneath my desk at work after going to daily Mass a while and being astounded at how my knees simply didn’t hurt even though I had to kneel for a long while under there fiddling with wires and whatnot. Daily Mass Catholic and daily rosary in the kneeling position = Knees of STEEL!!!

 

[puzzleannie]

I am a boomer and in my growing years new parishes were springing up like mushrooms in the burbs (the same ones now closing or consolidating, sadly). The typical plan was to build the school first to get new families together (and contributing) then build the church. In the meantime Mass was celebrated in the cafeteria or gym, with folding chairs, no kneelers, and everyone knelt on the floor. Then the beautiful church was built on the traditional pattern (with padded kneelers if they could afford it). come the 70s and somebody wrote a document that was NOT a V2 doc, but an “interpretation” of one that prescribed changes in the “worship space” and the rot set in. Altars turned around, tabernacles stuck in clostes, communion rails (of expensive imported Italian marble) ripped out, choirs banished from the loft, which became a cry room, to be replaced by folk-rock bands in the sanctuary (we had plenty of room for them when the organ, also imported and hand tuned by one of the world’s experts, was ripped out). and in some places while they were yanking out a third of the pews to make room for the musicians (I use the term loosely), they took the kneelers as well.

Meanwhile there was a period in the 70s-80s when new churches were actually built on this pattern, deliberately without kneelers, some without pews, but with padded arm chairs. Two I know of were built with a 70s innovation called a kiva, ripped off from a native American gathering place, a kind of round well sunk into the ground with benches all around the perimeter.

The logic? don’t ask me I never saw any logic to it or heard any explanation that made sense. Nor do I know why churches built in the last 40 years are required to look like community colleges or prisons.

 

[MissRose73]

My parents’ church has never had kneelers, and it was built in the early 1980’s. They have chairs, no pews.

I prefer going to churches where there are pews and kneelers available. I cannot kneel on the bare floor without a kneeler due to knee problems I have. Using a kneeler makes it easier on me.

Now if they would bring back the Communion Rails too…

 

[YoungTradCath]

My parents’ church has never had kneelers, and it was built in the early 1980’s. They have chairs, no pews.

I prefer going to churches where there are pews and kneelers available. I cannot kneel on the bare floor without a kneeler due to knee problems I have. Using a kneeler makes it easier on me.

Now if they would bring back the Communion Rails too…

What do you think of something like this?



Those are chairs but supposedly, there are kneelers that fold out of each of them. That is the Cathedral of the Assumption in Louisville, Kentucky (which used to look much better, but it was manhandled to make it “simple,” and which pales in comparison to the other cathedral in that state).

 

[Bendix]

I have been in perhaps 200ish Latin Rite parishes in the USA and exactly one (1) did not have kneelers. Quite different in Europe where many older churches do not have kneelers.

I think some people get a certain joy about discussing the absence of kneelers and architecture styles they dislike. It provides an opening for them to attack what they do not like. That is very sad. As other said JUST KNEEL and if you need padding bring something that you can discreetly (and quietly) kneel upon or wear knee pads under your pants!

Just don’t demand to kneel during Divine Liturgy in many Eastern Catholic parishes. I have seen Latin Rite Catholics who belong to Eastern Catholic parishes demand to kneel even after receiving instruction (both catechesis and instruction) not to kneel from their pastors yet they still do. Such people should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Bendix]

I am a boomer and in my growing years new parishes were springing up like mushrooms in the burbs (the same ones now closing or consolidating, sadly). The typical plan was to build the school first to get new families together (and contributing) then build the church. In the meantime Mass was celebrated in the cafeteria or gym, with folding chairs, no kneelers, and everyone knelt on the floor. Then the beautiful church was built on the traditional pattern (with padded kneelers if they could afford it). come the 70s and somebody wrote a document that was NOT a V2 doc, but an “interpretation” of one that prescribed changes in the “worship space” and the rot set in. Altars turned around, tabernacles stuck in clostes, communion rails (of expensive imported Italian marble) ripped out, choirs banished from the loft, which became a cry room, to be replaced by folk-rock bands in the sanctuary (we had plenty of room for them when the organ, also imported and hand tuned by one of the world’s experts, was ripped out). and in some places while they were yanking out a third of the pews to make room for the musicians (I use the term loosely), they took the kneelers as well.

Meanwhile there was a period in the 70s-80s when new churches were actually built on this pattern, deliberately without kneelers, some without pews, but with padded arm chairs. Two I know of were built with a 70s innovation called a kiva, ripped off from a native American gathering place, a kind of round well sunk into the ground with benches all around the perimeter.

The logic? don’t ask me I never saw any logic to it or heard any explanation that made sense. Nor do I know why churches built in the last 40 years are required to look like community colleges or prisons.

Which document was this?

 

[Bendix]

When I was traveling this Thanksgiving holiday, I went to a Catholic church that had a small daily Mass chapel with no kneelers. After the Sanctus, a small handful of us knelt without kneelers, and that included both of us with chapel veils and the Schoenstatt sisters in attendance. It felt great to be in unity with those who felt reverence towards the blessed sacrament.

And actually, when I’m feeling penitent, I’ll kneel at my church’s terrazzo floors without the kneeler from the Sanctus to the reception of communion and offer up the discomfort for the sanctification of priests, so that they may have the strength to continually kneel in prayer for their sanctity and mine.

On a sidenote - One of my more memorable experiences at my parish was being blessed to witness the ceremony to bring a person into full communion with the Catholic church (they were Episcopalian, I believe) in the Extraordinary Form. There was a LOT of kneeling for the person, and at one point their legs got very shaky from the pain. I smiled, as I remember being a new Catholic and feeling those pains of new Catholic knee soreness. I also remember the first time I had to do something underneath my desk at work after going to daily Mass a while and being astounded at how my knees simply didn’t hurt even though I had to kneel for a long while under there fiddling with wires and whatnot. Daily Mass Catholic and daily rosary in the kneeling position = Knees of STEEL!!!

Are you inferring those who did not kneel or wear head coverings did not feel reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Are you inferring those who did not kneel or wear head coverings did not feel reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament?

I think you’re looking for a statement to that effect. I don’t get that feeling from her post. Even if there was, would it be wrong? The GIRM says kneel. It doesn’t make an exception for instances in which there are no kneelers.

 

[Sarabande]

I freelance as a musician in numerous Catholic parishes in a number of states. Most parishes do have kneelers… even modern ones. Of the ones that didn’t have kneelers, they were usually more modern constructions. The first parish I remember attending which didn’t have kneelers, was in the mid 1980s when I was a kid, visiting family. It looked more like a gym… perhaps it was as it was a new parish in an area which wasn’t too Catholic. It’s a very Catholic area (at least culturally) where I’m from, with so many older churches, like 3 or 4 on one block in the city, so that was an entirely new phenomenon for me.

That said, once i got to university and started traveling, studying and working throughout Europe, there were many very old/ancient churches which had no kneelers. Many did not even have pews, but just chairs. At one of the churches where I attended mass, I remember people just kneeling on the floor or they brought their own padded pillow to kneel on.

I think for some in the U.S. especially if they haven’t traveled much, it seems so odd for a church not to have kneelers, since so many older churches in our country have always had them. And, unfortunately, at least in my experience, the parishes here in the U.S. which did not have kneelers tended to be a little less “traditional” in terms of how they celebrated mass. I remember that first parish without kneelers I attended as a child used female altar servers… first time I ever saw that and the only time until the early-mid 1990s. I later found out that they actually weren’t supposed to be doing it, but the pastor there was more liberal-minded and into “innovation”. So, when a person here experiences it, they associate with something seemingly “new-fangled”, when in reality the lack of kneelers really isn’t anything new.

 

[Brendan]

One of our previous bishops, Cardinal Dearden, was a strong advocate of not having kneelers in the parishes.

So quite a lot of the parishes built (or renovated) in the 70’s had no kneelers installed.

But his successor, Cardinal Szoka, and all the subsequent bishops have insisted that any parish that does not have kneelers install them if they do any parish renovations.

 

[MissRose73]

What do you think of something like this?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5082/5262843773_3a460e6baf.jpg

Those are chairs but supposedly, there are kneelers that fold out of each of them. That is the Cathedral of the Assumption in Louisville, Kentucky (which used to look much better, but it was manhandled to make it “simple,” and which pales in comparison to the other cathedral in that state).

I have no issue with the look of that parish. I’ve attended a parish that does the Extra Ordinary Form, and they cannot afford pews but have chairs that have kneelers that fold out for use which I would like to see at parishes that prefer chairs over pews with kneelers.

 

[YoungTradCath]

One of our previous bishops, Cardinal Dearden, was a strong advocate of not having kneelers in the parishes.

So quite a lot of the parishes built (or renovated) in the 70’s had no kneelers installed.

But his successor, Cardinal Szoka, and all the subsequent bishops have insisted that any parish that does not have kneelers install them if they do any parish renovations.

 

[Bendix]

I think you’re looking for a statement to that effect. I don’t get that feeling from her post. Even if there was, would it be wrong? The GIRM says kneel. It doesn’t make an exception for instances in which there are no kneelers.

It was a very odd sentence. Read it again.

 

[centurionguard]

Which document was this?

The Holy See in the Vatican has never ever issued any official document or encyclical to tear down and rip out high altars, the communion rails, tabernacles, kneelers, huge statues etc and make the new modern Catholic Church look sterile.

Cardinal Francis Arinze has talked about this before himself.

The only thing that was supposed to have changed when Vatican II came in effect was the priest saying the liturgy of the Mass in the vernacular and facing the congregation with an altar in front of him. Nothing more.

Don’t ask me what got into the mindful architectural rearrangement with the clergy 45 plus years ago. Out with the Old in with the New.