When did kneelers start leaving the Catholic Parish?

[bearer]

Huh, I didn’t realize that a lack of kneelers was quite that widespead. I know of only one church that does not have them, and that’s only in its Perpetual Adoration Chapel, which has armchairs and sofas. Most of the people I see there are regulars, and we all kneel on the floor.

 

[Bendix]

…come the 70s and somebody wrote a document that was NOT a V2 doc, but an “interpretation” of one that prescribed changes in the “worship space” and the rot set in…

I was specifically asking about this document(s.) The poster is correct. Vatican II had nothing to do with the mutilation of many churches. Those that make the claim it did should take the time to actually read the documents from the council.

 

[Bendix]

I think a great many pastors were overwhelmed, confused and completely unprepared for the changes when the OF Mass was introduced. The Church, in particular the bishops did a horrid job of catechesis and training in a great many instances. There was no Internet to rely on back then for the pastor who sought the truth yet was left without guidance.

Look at the comparatively trivial changes to the Mass we are experiencing right now. Some dioceses and parishes are doing a great job. Others, not so much.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I was specifically asking about this document(s.) The poster is correct. Vatican II had nothing to do with the mutilation of many churches. Those that make the claim it did should take the time to actually read the documents from the council.

But people use Vatican II as a false license to start the ripping of churches.

“Oh, we’re not installing kneelers because we are the ‘new, modern, Vatican II Church’,” whatever on earth that means. Stuff like that.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think a great many pastors were overwhelmed, confused and completely unprepared for the changes when the OF Mass was introduced. The Church, in particular the bishops did a horrid job of catechesis and training in a great many instances. There was no Internet to rely on back then for the pastor who sought the truth yet was left without guidance.

Look at the comparatively trivial changes to the Mass we are experiencing right now. Some dioceses and parishes are doing a great job. Others, not so much.

It seems they’re still doing a horrid job of catechesis, as well as church-building.

 

[Bendix]

It seems they’re still doing a horrid job of catechesis, as well as church-building.

Sadly, I don’t see all that many Catholic parish churches being built these days…

I would say that here in the USA, collectively, the US Bishops have proven to be very lacking in terms of the leadership they have provided over the past 50 or so years. That’s very painful for me to admit as a devout Catholic.

The best analogy (which is still extremely weak) that I can use is that of General Motors. The genius and hard work of Alfred Sloan plus the effects of WWI, WWII and an aging Henry Ford gave GM an unbelievable advantage in the worldwide production and sales of vehicles. All sorts of vehicles. GM began to slip badly in the 1970’s and effectively died a couple of years ago before taxpayers bailed it out. For nearly 40 years GM continued largely on momentum from previous generations until that well also finally ran dry.

The Church leadership in the USA (and perhaps internationally) has relied far too long on the momentum created by past generations. Only very recently do I see positive signs of a reborn Church in the USA with men like Gomez of LA, Dolan of NYC, Chaput now of Philidephia, Olmsted of Phoenix, etc. etc. in critical leadership positions.

I think someone born today will enjoy a far healthier Church environment then my generation. More and more I think they will be beneficiaries of improved catechesis and simply a better leadership that gets things done.

 

[sojo]

No kneelers in our church. Folding metal chairs. If someone tries to kneel, they tend to lean on the chair nearest to them and start a chain reaction of metal chairs tumbling. No room to kneel really. Have seen a few people kneel and they kick their own chair backward with their feet on the crossbar. Gets noisy and dangerous. Some folks try to step out to the aisle to kneel, but there’s only so much room. Creates a lot of commotion. Father flinches and folks run to help the fallen. Not a worshipful scene at all. Like to think that God understands our dilemma and allows us to stand and bow. No money to replace folding metal chairs with kneeler chairs. And it would reduce our capacity of about 60 people to 40. We managed to get a new roof and pay our obligation to the Bishop’s campaign. Kneelers and a Church big enough to hold them… we pray for such a luxury.

 

[jimrob]

We still have them in England (both the furniture and the people). Some people prefer to stand and they are tolerated.

When the Bishop comes to visit, he says some of the Masses but only preaches at others. For those Masses where he is not a celebrant, we provide him with a priedieu on the sanctuary so that he may kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer and after the Agnus Dei.

 

[NikitaRhea]

I have seen a few parishes with no kneelers, most of them are modern design. Anyways, that does not stop me from not kneeling on the floor. I have grown to like this, so during Lent I normally give up the kneelers.

I want to tell you all a story that you need to think about, my best-friend and Godmother goes to a different parish than I and when I go there it is awkward, well how is it, because the Tabnacle is not at the altar but in a separate room pararell to the altar. The reason was the pastor at the timewhen new construction of the parish was going on there was tension with the Protestant construction company who told the pastor you have to choose kneelers or Tabnacle in the chapel. It was difficult decision, but I have recently learned that the new pastor is going to have the Tabnacle in the chapel (behind the altar) where it should be.

Some of these parishes that do not have kneelers you have to wonder did they have the experience. And I am not saying all of them did. But, remember that it is a beautiful sacrifce to suffer just a little to praise the God who suffered most for all of us.

God Bless,
Nikita

PS: Sorry for the grammar and spelling errors.

 

[wondrousgnat]

I visited some churche s in a different diocese. Two churches had no kneelers, stations or statues. One had a Crucifix about the size of the one on my neck. A third parish had kneelers but when I knelt I was given a dirty looks and nobody else was kneeling. Returning to my own diocese I wrote to ask what is happening. I received this response on March 17, 2000 from Monsignor Kagan (just installed as Bishop of Bismark)

"This letter will acknowledge receipt of your own kind letter addressed to me and dated March 15, 2000. The question concerning the presence and use of kneelers in Church is a good one.

The Code of Canon Law in these matters which are of a liturgical nature always refers to the proper liturgical books. In Catholic language that would mean only those books which have been approved by the Holy See for use in any of the Church’s liturgies. In this instance, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and the Appendix approved for use in the United States are the normative documents.

These documents make several references to the Catholic faithful kneeling at the designated times during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. While kneelers are not mentioned by name, that is the clear intent of these authoritative documents. Two years ago, at their General Meeting in November, the Bishops of the United States approved unanimously the affirmation of this practice and the use of kneelers by the Catholic faithful.

Thus, all parish churches, public, private and semi-private chapels and oratories are to have kneelers for the use of the Catholic faithful during the celebration of the Church’s liturgies. In other words, this is not optional.

With every personal good wish for you, I am
Sincerely yours in Christ,
(signed)
Reverand Monsignor David D. Kagan, J.C.L.
Vicar General/Moderator of the Curia
Chancellor ad interim"

 

[wondrousgnat]

In the parish I used to belong to the roof caved in one Sunday morning shortly before mass. For several years afterwards we used folding chairs that had kneelers attached to them

 

[puzzleannie]

Which document was this?

danged if I know, something like art in worship and liturgy, built of living stones, there are several but not my area of expertise

 

[wisdomseeker]

Until the Protestant rebellion, there were no kneelers. You knelt on the floor. Kneeling is not supposed to be comfy. Do not kneel because kneelers are present, but because God is present.

Yes, this is true. people would kneel on the floor. recently when I was in Brasil, the kneelers there are made of wood and there cushion on it. People still kneel. when i mentioned that it should have some kind of cushion, my aunt got mad and told me that we are not to feel confortable but it is a sign of sacrifice.

 

[chemoangel]

Some People can’t Kneel. I for one, need to stand up during mass at the back of the church…the most I can do, is Bow or lower my head.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Some People can’t Kneel. I for one, need to stand up during mass at the back of the church…the most I can do, is Bow or lower my head.

Are you saying that because you cannot kneel, it should not be kneelers for the others who can? No one is saying that those who cannot kneel, must kneel. We are talking about the norm and not the exceptions.

 

[dochawk]

OK, if noone else will give the history lessons . . .

RC churches did not have pews until the Reformation. Pews first appeared with the protestant emphasis on the sermon, and were put in for that long part of protestant worship. They spread to the RC from there (and in the US, spread to the EC as an americanism rather than a latinisation).

Kneeling serves two roles in the west: it is the position of penitence, and also of respect.

As a penitential posture, it is ancient. As a matter of respectt, though, it (and genuflection) trace to its position as respect to earthly kings. Respect given to earthly kings would certainly also be due to the King of Kings.

So peniticial kneeling is ancient, while kneeling for respect is far more recent.

In the East, kneeling is only penitential, while standing is the position of respect (and we don’t only kneell, we prostrate. In fact, there are ancient canons from the councils anathemizing those who kneel on Sunday, but this refers to peniticial, not respectful, kneeling.)

sidenotes:

1. the Novus Ordo does not, as suggested above, require that the priest face the people. In fact, it assumes that the priest is facing east, as do the congregation, and the rubrics instruct him to turn towards the people at certain points.
2. My family history is loaded with bad knees. My grandmother blew out both snooping about EMTs across the street, my brother injured his at soccer, my sister in gymnastics, and I was justt short of surgery from standingup at my desk . . . I had been bracing myself on the pew for every genuflection and to kneel for years before turning east. My knees feel much better now

hawk

 

[kingal86]

We still have them in England (both the furniture and the people). Some people prefer to stand and they are tolerated.

When the Bishop comes to visit, he says some of the Masses but only preaches at others. For those Masses where he is not a celebrant, we provide him with a priedieu on the sanctuary so that he may kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer and after the Agnus Dei.

Yeah I haven’t seen a Catholic church in England without kneelers yet (I’ve visited several in Birmingham and Westminster Cathedral) - though I’ll admit I haven’t been to any in rural areas.

When I first went to Mass it was the main thing I noticed that distinguished from (most of) the Anglican churches I’m used to - though it took me a while to realise you sometimes have to fold down the kneelers.