When did non Catholics stop being Catholic?

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His mother spent years trying to get him back, pleading with the Pope. Maybe LINVS can answer this, if a Jewish family stole your child and adopted him against your will, would you be ok with that? What if it was a Catholic Bishop who stole your son. Would that be ok with you? Am I the only one who sees what went on here as a crime, and nothing else?
It might not have been a crime in the legal sense in that period of history (I’m not that familiar with it), but it most certainly was a wrong action and it does us no good to try and cover it up or make excuses for it. You are correct in your assessment that it was a wrong action, no matter what period of history we are talking about. Kidnapping a child has never been a good. It is not something any one of us would appreciate had it happened to us.

If we, as Catholics, cannot admit when we are wrong, what kind of witness is that to the world? Accept the fact that the leaders of our Church, just like the rest of us, can and do make human errors. (And let’s not get into a discussion of infallibility here, that is an entirely different subject).

As far as it being a different period of history, what part of the Commandment “Thou shalt not steal” was abrogated at that time? Kidnapping a child is stealing it. There may be an element of diminished culpability here, or flawed judgment, but that does not make it right. It still is a moral wrong and we need to see it for what it is.
 
You can’t judge a bygone era by the standards of today.
I was taught if something is wrong it’s always wrong, no matter when or how it occurs. Kidnapping another family’s son, then refusing to return him, or allow them to see him, or even know where he is, is wrong. There was an international outcry at the time, and the pope was unrepentant and said he’d have no problem doing the same thing again. I’m staggered at the reluctance here to call a spade a spade and make excuses for the pope rather than call it what it is, kidnapp, and a serious crime.
 
It might not have been a crime in the legal sense in that period of history (I’m not that familiar with it), but it most certainly was a wrong action and it does us no good to try and cover it up or make excuses for it. You are correct in your assessment that it was a wrong action, no matter what period of history we are talking about. Kidnapping a child has never been a good. It is not something any one of us would appreciate had it happened to us.

If we, as Catholics, cannot admit when we are wrong, what kind of witness is that to the world? Accept the fact that the leaders of our Church, just like the rest of us, can and do make human errors. (And let’s not get into a discussion of infallibility here, that is an entirely different subject).

As far as it being a different period of history, what part of the Commandment “Thou shalt not steal” was abrogated at that time? Kidnapping a child is stealing it. There may be an element of diminished culpability here, or flawed judgment, but that does not make it right. It still is a moral wrong and we need to see it for what it is.
Thank you CB for having the decency and honesty to call it what it is. I just wish I grew up with more Catholics like you. Faithful but not afraid to call a crime a crime, regardless of who commits it.
 
I was taught if something is wrong it’s always wrong, no matter when or how it occurs. Kidnapping another family’s son, then refusing to return him, or allow them to see him, or even know where he is, is wrong. There was an international outcry at the time, and the pope was unrepentant and said he’d have no problem doing the same thing again. I’m staggered at the reluctance here to call a spade a spade and make excuses for the pope rather than call it what it is, kidnapp, and a serious crime.
The Bible also teaches us how to treat our slaves. I think we can all agree that slavery is wrong. I also think we can agree that what was done with the child was wrong.

But hindsight is 20/20. Our notions of conversion, evangelization, and relations with the Jews have certainly evolved in the last 110 years. In the context of the times, the persons involved most certainly thought the maid was doing the right thing for the child.

Which is why I say that we can’t judge a person out of the context of the historical milieu. We can most certainly learn from their actions though, and agree that perhaps it isn’t a moral act based on our understanding of morality today, just as we can’t condemn a slave-owner who followed the Bible and treated his slaves right, for owning a slave. We can say it is wrong to own slaves based on today’s understanding of human dignity. But we can’t fault someone for applying the best known standards of their time.
 
Thank you CB for having the decency and honesty to call it what it is. I just wish I grew up with more Catholics like you. Faithful but not afraid to call a crime a crime, regardless of who commits it.
Perhaps the reason you do not see eye to eye with most Catholics is because there may be a fundamental deontological difference between the way Catholics view morality and the way most Protestants do. Protestants tend to be legalistic and rule oriented just as they are with their treatment of Scripture. Catholics, at least those who are knowledgeable, are more ontological in perspective. This case, if nothing else, does highlight the distinction.

Here is another, but different, example that may be helpful for understanding the difference.

According to Catholic teaching a man who steals food to feed a starving family is not guilty of theft because each person has a natural right to the necessities of life. It is wrong for some to have more than they need especially when the abundance of those deprives others of the right to have what they need to live. Balancing injustice is not considered theft.

A purely legalistic interpretation would, as you do, claim that “a crime is a crime” and the poor man with the starving family should be treated as a thief. This view would be based upon a misapplication of justice because it is founded upon and derives from an unjust condition.

Going back to the difference between the typical Protestant vs Catholic view, a Protestant would view the rule or law having primacy. God is compelled to follow the moral rules, like everyone else. A Catholic would insist that it is the being and goodness of God that has primacy, that will, act and order comes from who God is. We trust God as Being because He is Goodness itself not because he is under some external compulsion to follow the rules like everyone else.

A good way of trying to understand the difference between legal policy, moral code and the benevolent will of God is in terms of courts of appeal. Since God is the Creator and source of all that exists, then God is the source of all goodness and of what is morally good. The natural moral law is the operative expression of God’s goodness in nature. Living things have a natural end or good towards which they tend. For human beings the natural good is the life and well-being of each individual. Beneath the natural moral law, but derived from it, come the legal proscriptions of each polity which promulgates laws to govern the citizens under its jurisdiction. A just government bases its laws on natural moral law because it respects the natural welfare or good of its citizens. An unjust government denies or ignore the natural rights of at least some of its citizens.

The problem with viewing civil law as having ultimate authority is that it would then be impossible to question whether any particular law is a just or unjust one. If civil laws have ultimate authority then any law promulgated by any government would be just by definition.

If you want to insist on the ultimate authority of civil law, then you would be placed in the rather compromised position of claiming that Mary and Joseph, by taking Jesus to Egypt were acting criminally when they disobeyed Herod’s order that male children under a specific age were to be killed. From this it is clear that a crime is not a crime simply because it is so under some civil jurisdiction.

The order of appeal is from civil jurisdiction to natural moral law to the authority of God as Creator.

You could argue that taking the Jewish child from his parents was against a just civil law but, even if not, it was against the natural moral order and was therefore wrong. You might be right as far as that goes. However, notice that God is the final court of appeal. He has supreme authority over all creation as its creator. Ultimately, the Pope’s actions will be judged by God on their own merits. It is all well and good for you to make pronouncements as to the rightness or wrongness of the Pope’s actions, but notice you are not the one in the authoritative position to make that declaration, God is. We’ll have to wait and see what God has to say about the matter at the final judgement.

Personally, I would hesitate in trying to make some authoritative claim simply because we do not have access to all of the facts. If God revealed something by way of personal revelation to the Pope concerning His plans for the boy, then our uninformed opinions on the matter are of little worth.
 
Personally, I would hesitate in trying to make some authoritative claim simply because we do not have access to all of the facts. If God revealed something by way of personal revelation to the Pope concerning His plans for the boy, then our uninformed opinions on the matter are of little worth.
Perhaps God was working through Pio Nono and Edgardo Mortara as part of his plan to destroy the Papal States by making sure that they had no international friends at a time when they really did need some?
 
But not enough humanity or common decency it seems, to realise kidnapping and removing by force, a perfectly happy and healthy young boy from his family, was wrong, inhumane, and a crime.
The maid was wrong to baptize him without his parents’ consent (and this is the example that is brought up when people say, “But, why aren’t we allowed to baptize people without their parents’ consent?”) but as soon as he was baptized, he was no longer Jewish; he was a Catholic, and had to be brought up as a Catholic.

The promises made at Baptism are very serious indeed, and the Pope was making sure that those promises were being obeyed.

It’s true that in modern times people don’t take their baptismal vows nearly that seriously, and in fact forget all about them on the car ride home, never to darken a Church door again, but the bad behaviour of a few does not dictate God’s law.
 
The Ottomans used to kidnap sturdy-looking Christian boys and, after intense training, learning Turkish, religious indoctrination and conversion to Islam, they entered the elite military force known as the Janissaries (composed of others ‘recruited’ in the same way). Thus they gave illiterate peasants a good career and the eternal advantages of embracing Islam.

Similarly, Irish Catholic children were lifted off the streets of New York to be raised by proper, Protestant and Protestant-work-ethic Americans in the West, thus they were ‘saved’ and ‘Saved’ at the same time.

How fortunate these children were to get good jobs and ‘true’ religion.
 
The maid was wrong to baptize him without his parents’ consent (and this is the example that is brought up when people say, “But, why aren’t we allowed to baptize people without their parents’ consent?”) but as soon as he was baptized, he was no longer Jewish; he was a Catholic, and had to be brought up as a Catholic.

The promises made at Baptism are very serious indeed, and the Pope was making sure that those promises were being obeyed.

It’s true that in modern times people don’t take their baptismal vows nearly that seriously, and in fact forget all about them on the car ride home, never to darken a Church door again, but the bad behaviour of a few does not dictate God’s law.
Let’s say that I’m a nurse, and I baptize a newborn against his non-Catholic parents’ wishes. Now that that he is Catholic, am I now morally justified in kidnapping him in order to ensure that he is brought up a Catholic?
 
this WAS a crime…for sure. faith cannot be through force or coercion
 
Let’s say that I’m a nurse, and I baptize a newborn against his non-Catholic parent’s wishes. Now that that he is Catholic, am I now morally justified in kidnapping him in order to ensure that he is brought up a Catholic?
We no longer live in the 19th century, and the Pope is no longer in charge of the government.

I actually don’t know what provisions would be made for the child in those circumstances in modern times - he would be required to get a Catholic education, but how would he fulfill that requirement?

But I do know that people are strictly taught never to baptize any child against his or her parents’ wishes, and at my parish we have often turned away well-meaning grandparents who wanted to baptize their grandchildren behind the parents’ backs.
 
Perhaps God was working through Pio Nono and Edgardo Mortara as part of his plan to destroy the Papal States by making sure that they had no international friends at a time when they really did need some?
As I said, my uninformed opinion on the matter would be of little worth.

You are aware that throughout history, worldly power is often at odds with the will of God and divesting the Church of worldly power is not, in itself, a bad thing? If the choice is between relying on international friends or relying on God, your Jewish heritage is likewise clear about how to answer that dilemma, no?

Was there something inherently wrong with my original post?
 
As I said, my uninformed opinion on the matter would be of little worth.

You are aware that throughout history, worldly power is often at odds with the will of God and divesting the Church of worldly power is not, in itself, a bad thing? If the choice is between relying on international friends or relying on God, your Jewish heritage is likewise clear about how to answer that dilemma, no?

Was there something inherently wrong with my original post?
I was merely taking up your point about waiting for God’s judgement in some ultimate, heavenly sense - the Papal States were soon to be swept away and the Mortara Affair played quite a role in their diplomatic and military isolation, so maybe it’s not a case of that kind of waiting. 🙂

Of course, I’d say that divesting the Church of worldly power was a good thing, in and of itself, but as a (half) Italian Jew, I might be regarded as slightly prejudiced.
 
We no longer live in the 19th century, and the Pope is no longer in charge of the government.

I actually don’t know what provisions would be made for the child in those circumstances in modern times - he would be required to get a Catholic education, but how would he fulfill that requirement?

But I do know that people are strictly taught never to baptize any child against his or her parents’ wishes, and at my parish we have often turned away well-meaning grandparents who wanted to baptize their grandchildren behind the parents’ backs.
Nice dodge. If there was an obligation then to kidnap the child in order to ensure that he be raised Catholic, such an obligation exists today.

Regardless of the fact that the Pope at that time was the temporal power, the child was taken from his parents against their will, and it is being “justified” on the basis of an action that should not have occurred in the first place. It would be wrong now, and it was wrong then.
 
Let’s say that I’m a nurse, and I baptize a newborn against his non-Catholic parents’ wishes. Now that that he is Catholic, am I now morally justified in kidnapping him in order to ensure that he is brought up a Catholic?
There is a very subtle difference between your example and what happened in the case of Edgardo Mortara. If the the nurse’s testimony is completely true, she baptized him because she thought he was about to die. There would have been no question about his being raised Catholic or Jewish because, she presumed, he would not live long.

His survival was not foreseen, nor part of some nefarious plan of the nurse to “bring him up Catholic.” This was not an attempt to “force” the faith on Edgardo.

The bigger theologial question to be asked is, “What exactly happens when someone is baptized?” If something very real and very crucial takes place at that moment, which Jesus and God apparently insist does, ( “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” {John 3:1}) then it would seem that the Church had been handed responsibility for the eternal destiny of the soul of Edgardo. Recall that Edgardo chose not to leave the Church as an adult. He was an intelligent and capable adult who could have acted on his own behalf. He was not coerced to remain in the Church.
 
There is a very subtle difference between your example and what happened in the case of Edgardo Mortara. If the the nurse’s testimony is completely true, she baptized him because she thought he was about to die. There would have been no question about his being raised Catholic or Jewish because, she presumed, he would not live long.

His survival was not foreseen, nor part of some nefarious plan of the nurse to “bring him up Catholic.” This was not an attempt to “force” the faith on Edgardo.

The bigger theologial question to be asked is, “What exactly happens when someone is baptized?” If something very real and very crucial takes place at that moment, which Jesus and God apparently insist does, ( “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” {John 3:1}) then it would seem that the Church had been handed responsibility for the eternal destiny of the soul of Edgardo. Recall that Edgardo chose not to leave the Church as an adult. He was an intelligent and capable adult who could have acted on his own behalf. He was not coerced to remain in the Church.
It’s really just a matter of ‘power’ and what the Church, the Ottomans and Protestant Children’s societies could get away with. The ‘bigger theological’ issues are reasons for those actions, or mere casuistical alibis, depending on your point of view.
 
It’s really just a matter of ‘power’ and what the Church, the Ottomans and Protestant Children’s societies could get away with. The ‘bigger theological’ issues are reasons for those actions, or mere casuistical alibis, depending on your point of view.
In the end it depends upon God’s point of view. It is your current point of view that places the filters of power, society, alibi or theology on what happened and makes your view of the entire affair colored by those filters. Any or all of those filters may add some degree of accuracy to your picture of what happened, but by the same token each filter may detract from an accurate depiction.

An awareness of how those filters operate in the rendering of your viewpoint (or mine) at least provides some level of awareness that the filters are, in fact, operative, and possibly distorting, in how you (or I) render the case. Again, the rightness or wrongness depends upon God’s point of view, not on our limited one.
 
In the end it depends upon God’s point of view. It is your current point of view that places the filters of power, society, alibi or theology on what happened and makes your view of the entire affair colored by those filters. Any or all of those filters may add some degree of accuracy to your picture of what happened, but by the same token each filter may detract from an accurate depiction.

An awareness of how those filters operate in the rendering of your viewpoint (or mine) at least provides some level of awareness that the filters are, in fact, operative, and possibly distorting, in how you (or I) render the case. Again, the rightness or wrongness depends upon God’s point of view, not on our limited one.
Saying that interpretation depends on one’s paradigms (including one’s paradigms about God) can be both informative and empty at the same time - it can encourage conversation and ‘testing’ or end it.
 
Nice dodge. If there was an obligation then to kidnap the child in order to ensure that he be raised Catholic, such an obligation exists today.
What is your alternative? Say you are a parent, and your child (unbeknownst to you) has been baptized in the Catholic Church.

Whose job is it to inform you that your child is a Catholic?

What are your obligations toward your Catholic child? If you refuse to give your Catholic child a Catholic education, whose job is it to make sure he receives his right to a Catholic education?
Regardless of the fact that the Pope at that time was the temporal power, the child was taken from his parents against their will, and it is being “justified” on the basis of an action that should not have occurred in the first place. It would be wrong now, and it was wrong then.
19th century Protestants were actually infamous for sending non-Protestant children to Protestant boarding schools without giving the parents a choice in the matter. Protestant educators were especially zealous about making sure Native children received a Christian education, and often kept Native children in school even over the holidays to prevent them from being “contaminated” by their Native culture.

The accusation of “kidnapping” could also be applied to these situations, as well.
 
Saying that interpretation depends on one’s paradigms (including one’s paradigms about God) can be both informative and empty at the same time - it can encourage conversation and ‘testing’ or end it.
Correct. For the most part, that outcome would depend upon the stake that one has in continuing the conversation.

If I thought there was something of real importance to be gained, it might be worth pursuing an informed conversation. However, it is not clear to me what the original intent behind bringing up the case was to begin with, so my point is if the original intent were to clearly understand all the implications in a neutral and non-prejudiced manner, then that should be the driving motive, with fairmindedness and complete access to evidence the guiding principles of inquiry. The problem, it seems to me, is that judgements have been rendered in a number of previous posts and, I dare say, without apparent adherence to those principles of neutrality
 
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