When did people start teaching that the Eucharist is *only* symbolic?

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The early Church clearly believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (as pointed out by Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and others), and that has been Church teaching since the beginning. It seems that even early Reformers believed in the Real Presence, and (from what I’ve seen on these forums) some modern Protestants still believe in some type of Real Presence, though not exactly as the Church teaches. The more common Protestant view seems to be that the Eucharist is only a symbol (as argued by many, like this article by Norman Geisler). When did this kind of teaching/belief begin?
 
I highly recommend the book Dissent From the Creed by Hogan. It will give you the best detailed explanation of this.

But, in short, after the heresies regarding the nature of God and Trinity were settled, people began to delve more deeply into other aspects of the faith. Teaching began to develop regarding the sacraments in general and Eucharist in particular. And of course therein various controversies began.

So, between 700 and 1100 there were several “controversies” mostly dealing with monks, theologians, etc, who proposed various teaching and explanations. The Berengar-Lanfranc controversy is one. Then the issue emerges again during the Cathar heresy. However the Cathars had a complete dualistic system that went much beyond the Eucharist. Matter being evil was at the center of that heresy, so of course the Real Presence (and all sacraments actually) was abhorrent to them.

The heresies regarding the Eucharist began in earnest with Wyclif and Hus in the 1300s.
 
The early Church clearly believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (as pointed out by Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and others), and that has been Church teaching since the beginning. It seems that even early Reformers believed in the Real Presence, and (from what I’ve seen on these forums) some modern Protestants still believe in some type of Real Presence, though not exactly as the Church teaches. The more common Protestant view seems to be that the Eucharist is only a symbol (as argued by many, like this article by Norman Geisler). When did this kind of teaching/belief begin?
Modern Catholics probably switched to a partial symbolic explanation of the Eucharist sometime in the middle of the 20th century. Unfortunately, I have lost the name of a popular book on Catholic symbolism. :o
 
Modern Catholics probably switched to a partial symbolic explanation of the Eucharist sometime in the middle of the 20th century. Unfortunately, I have lost the name of a popular book on Catholic symbolism. :o
I was watching an interesting show on EWTN that discussed this very phenomenon; basically, after Vatican II, there came out a number of bizarre catechisms that were saying very vague, and sometimes downright wrong stuff. I’m guessing maybe this book on Catholic symbolism that you mentioned could be related to these shady catechisms that came out back then.
 
I was watching an interesting show on EWTN that discussed this very phenomenon; basically, after Vatican II, there came out a number of bizarre catechisms that were saying very vague, and sometimes downright wrong stuff. I’m guessing maybe this book on Catholic symbolism that you mentioned could be related to these shady catechisms that came out back then.
And I am guessing that this “downright wrong stuff” is a modern version of the heresies in post 2.
A good heresy never dies. :eek:
 
And I am guessing that this “downright wrong stuff” is a modern version of the heresies in post 2.
A good heresy never dies. :eek:
Agood heresy never dies, but fades then comes back again and again and again ! ! :eek: 🤷
 
The early Church clearly believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (as pointed out by Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and others), and that has been Church teaching since the beginning. It seems that even early Reformers believed in the Real Presence, and (from what I’ve seen on these forums) some modern Protestants still believe in some type of Real Presence, though not exactly as the Church teaches. The more common Protestant view seems to be that the Eucharist is only a symbol (as argued by many, like this article by Norman Geisler). When did this kind of teaching/belief begin?
It probably began in John 6 when many of the Lord’s disciples left Him because of His teachings on receiving His Body and Blood. "On hearing it (Jesus explaining to them about receiving His Body and Blood by feeding on it), many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?,From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.” This struggle to accept this teaching on the Eucharist must involve every generation that came after Jesus. Even today there are many who will not come to understand this beautiful teaching of the Lord Jesus regarding His Body and Blood that is contained on every Eucharistic Altar in the Catholic, Orthodox and Eastern Churches. Every generation that is in the Catholic, Orthodox and Eastern Churches must come to realize this great truth. The problem today is too many Christians of the Catholic and Eastern Churches will listen to the Protestant arguments. These Protestant influences will attract them into going against what teachings they were brought up with and many of these will opt to join these Protestant Churches. Yet we have many within the Church perhaps more in the Catholic Church than in the Orthodox Church that do not have the right teaching and attitude towards the Eucharist. It is a mystery why some people gladly accept this teaching while others struggle with it. Perhaps it has to do when they were children and they did not grasp this teaching to their hearts. If you do not come to accept this teaching when you were young you will probably have difficulty with it when you are older. Protestant influences today has caused too many people to think that the Eucharist is only symbolic.
 
This has clearly always been a difficult teaching to accept, as chimo mentions. Did the widespread teaching (as in Protestantism) more-or-less start with the Reformation (and/or with the “pre-Reformers”)?
 
This has clearly always been a difficult teaching to accept, as chimo mentions. Did the widespread teaching (as in Protestantism) more-or-less start with the Reformation (and/or with the “pre-Reformers”)?
Yes it was the Protestants who had brought this symbolic gesture more out in the opened. It was not the first Reformers since many of them even Luther accepted the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. The problem with Protestants was later on they wanted to distant themselves from Catholic teachings so the real presence is one area where they started to change. For me the teaching is very simple if you will understand these important principals. When we receive the Lord Jesus in the Sacrament of His Body and Blood the Lord gives us another gift to be imparted into us. He gives to us another Deposit of the Holy Spirit so that at every reception of the Holy Eucharist the presence of the Holy Spirit actually increases in you. Why? Very simply we are to acquire the Holy Spirit to the level when we become Full of Grace. Just as the Holy Mother of God received this Fullness since the day of her conception we are called into Fullness by receiving the Lord Jesus in each and every Holy Communion. Our Deposits of Grace at Baptism and Confirmation only confer on us partial Deposits of the Holy Spirit so that it is necessary for us to receive more Deposits. These Deposits will be contained in our reception of every Mass and Divine Liturgy we attend to (including our Confessions). As these other Deposits we receive in the Mass and the Divine Liturgy are there in us we can by the Grace of God to work with them when we are out in the world to actually increase the presence of the Holy Spirit in us. As we begin to glorify God through our works of mercy outside the Mass and the Divine Liturgy we will actually increase the Holy Spirit in us by leaps and bounds. The scriptures say “Trade till I come” so that once you receive the Holy Spirit through your reception of the Lord Jesus at the Mass you can increase this Deposit with works of mercy before you come again to the Mass. That is how you increase the Holy Spirit that is in you.
 
Both Augustine and Ambrose wrote about the Real Presence, in *De Doctrina *and *De Mysteriis *respectively. After that period it was largely forgotten. Several centuries passed without anyone raising any questions about it, until Charlemagne (768-814) initiated wide-ranging ecclesiastical reforms, including the standardization of the liturgy throughout the Empire. This in turn triggered a new spirit of inquiry in the Church, particularly in Benedictine monasteries.

Liturgical reform called for reflection on the sacraments, some of which presented greater difficulty than others. Baptism, for instance, was relatively straightforward, but the Eucharist was more complex. This is the background to the celebrated “Eucharistic controversy” at Corbie, a Benedictine monastery in France, in the 830s and 840s. Two monks, Radbertus and Ratramnus, both wrote books on the subject, both of them drawing on Ambrose and Augustine. Unhelpfully, they both gave their books the same title, *De Corpore et Sanguine Domini *(On the Body and Blood of the Lord), and both used essentially the same terminology, in which the three key words were veritas (truth), *figura *(appearance or symbol), and mysterium (mystery). But they attached different meanings to the terms. Radbertus used veritas to mean that which faith teaches and figura to mean the outward appearance of the elements of the Eucharist: they are outwardly bread and wine but “truly,” in Radbertus’ sense, the body and blood of the Lord. But Ratramnus, whose book appeared about ten years later, used veritas to denote the natural world of the five senses and figura to denote all that is symbolic.

Charlemagne’s grandson, who is known to history by the unflattering name Charles the Bald, was responsible, in a way, for triggering the controversy. He was the ruler of the Empire at the time Radbertus wrote his book, and one day in 843 he turned up at Corbie saying he wanted to stay there a few days on a retreat. Charles was interested in theology, not least because he was aware that a mastery of the subject would help him settle conflicts at the various councils that were held in the course of his reign.

After a day or two at Corbie, Charles found that he didn’t get on very well with Radbertus, who was the head of the monastic school and therefore, nominally, the monastery’s top theologian. He got on better with one of the other monks, Ratramnus. Among other questions, Charles asked Ratramnus “whether the body and the blood of Christ, which the faithful at church receive in their mouth, are present there in mystery or in truth.” That was when Ratramnus sat down to write his book. At the time of the Protestant Reformation, the reformers seized upon Ratramnus’ book to justify their reinterpretation of the Eucharist, while the Catholic Church stood by Radbertus. The controversy continues.
 
I find it particularly strange how there are many of ultra-conservative Protestants who are Bible-literalists. Yet the message of John 6 doesn’t ring true to them.

Despite some of the strange things Luther had to say… I’m pretty sure the Lutherans still have some form of Holy Communion.
Their services still seem quite reverent and traditional, compared to the Catholic Churches I’ve been too! (Then again, this was two different services in the same Church in Norway, one funeral and the Christmas celebration just days later).

Perhaps a lot of it stems from this “Out of Context” rubbish that seems to run rampant amongst people who have strong opinions, and feel Catholics and everyone else are completely wrong. I see that argument as a complete and utter cop-out. Instead of offering a reasonable proposition that counteracts the other’s argument, this statement basically says two things, “I’m too lazy to think of a response” and “That just isn’t worth replying to, your premise is that stupid.”

Another problem today is that Catholics are not being educated STRONGLY enough on the Eucharist. It is the Source and Summit of our faith! These Liberal attitudes that are leaking in suggesting that the Real Presence is just “hokum to keep people dropping money in collection plates,” not to mention watered-down faith of many does not help our position.
Isn’t is only about 25% of Catholics now that believe in the Real Presence? Its about time our Priests saw that statistic and started ‘going back to basics’ in their homilies.
 
The early Church clearly believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (as pointed out by Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and others), and that has been Church teaching since the beginning. It seems that even early Reformers believed in the Real Presence, and (from what I’ve seen on these forums) some modern Protestants still believe in some type of Real Presence, though not exactly as the Church teaches. The more common Protestant view seems to be that the Eucharist is only a symbol (as argued by many, like this article by Norman Geisler). When did this kind of teaching/belief begin?
The truth is this thought that it is symbolic began almost as soon as the Eucharist was instituted as the enemy of the Church, Satan, went to work on disrupting the truth from early on!
 
I find it particularly strange how there are many of ultra-conservative Protestants who are Bible-literalists. Yet the message of John 6 doesn’t ring true to them.

Despite some of the strange things Luther had to say… I’m pretty sure the Lutherans still have some form of Holy Communion.
Their services still seem quite reverent and traditional, compared to the Catholic Churches I’ve been too! (Then again, this was two different services in the same Church in Norway, one funeral and the Christmas celebration just days later).

Perhaps a lot of it stems from this “Out of Context” rubbish that seems to run rampant amongst people who have strong opinions, and feel Catholics and everyone else are completely wrong. I see that argument as a complete and utter cop-out. Instead of offering a reasonable proposition that counteracts the other’s argument, this statement basically says two things, “I’m too lazy to think of a response” and “That just isn’t worth replying to, your premise is that stupid.”

Another problem today is that Catholics are not being educated STRONGLY enough on the Eucharist. It is the Source and Summit of our faith! These Liberal attitudes that are leaking in suggesting that the Real Presence is just “hokum to keep people dropping money in collection plates,” not to mention watered-down faith of many does not help our position.
Isn’t is only about 25% of Catholics now that believe in the Real Presence? Its about time our Priests saw that statistic and started ‘going back to basics’ in their homilies.
To be told about the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and to experience it is two different things. I say amen to you brother for we are not taught how to experience Jesus in the Liturgy. If we were taught to experience Jesus early on we would rock this world back to God. The problem in Church and it is the same as it is in the Orthodox Church is this lack of understanding to experience Jesus. I thought it was only a Catholic problem because they tend to teach too much theory before trying to experience God but being raised up in the Orthodox Church we have the same problem with too many people uneducated in the experiences of God in the Liturgy. Sure we go to Church but there is this incredible gap in what knowledge we pick up from instruction and what we can experience. I am convinced the lack of experiencing God is causing this great problem we are now into. I believe you are right about this lack of education of the Mass. Since the Mass and the Divine Liturgy are the cornerstones of our Faith why are we not using it as building blocks for our youth and children to come to experience the delights of the Lord! We must have teachers who are able to understand the Mass and the Divine Liturgy in such a way that we want to experience God and are experiencing God in the present moment.
 
To be told about the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and to experience it is two different things. I say amen to you brother for we are not taught how to experience Jesus in the Liturgy. If we were taught to experience Jesus early on we would rock this world back to God. The problem in Church and it is the same as it is in the Orthodox Church is this lack of understanding to experience Jesus. I thought it was only a Catholic problem because they tend to teach too much theory before trying to experience God but being raised up in the Orthodox Church we have the same problem with too many people uneducated in the experiences of God in the Liturgy. Sure we go to Church but there is this incredible gap in what knowledge we pick up from instruction and what we can experience. I am convinced the lack of experiencing God is causing this great problem we are now into. I believe you are right about this lack of education of the Mass. Since the Mass and the Divine Liturgy are the cornerstones of our Faith why are we not using it as building blocks for our youth and children to come to experience the delights of the Lord! We must have teachers who are able to understand the Mass and the Divine Liturgy in such a way that we want to experience God and are experiencing God in the present moment.
You are so correct that we need to learn about the mystery of God, before we can come to contemplate and experience God!

Personally, I have had a couple of “personal revelations” that I feel complement my faith, and make it stronger 🙂
 
I’m not sure when the purely memorialist stance arose in some parts of Protestantism such as the Baptists. Baptists originally believed in Calvin’s doctrine of the Eucharist – not exactly the physical presence as taught in the Catholic Church, but a belief that faithful communicants truly commune with the Body and Blood and receive the graces of the passion and resurrection, the forgiveness of sins. This they received not because of a change in the substance of the elements but a lifting up into heaven through the Holy Spirit – so they were not actually memorialists who believe the entire meal is only symbolic and not a means of sacramental grace. A few Baptists might still believe in that, but not many. I’d think it was a relatively recent occurrence in Baptist history that they entirely repudiated any sacramental understanding of baptism and the Eucharist. Early on they also accepted baptism by pouring, but not infant baptism.
 
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