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Nicea325
Guest
Do you worship the Bible Richard?
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
But in your paradigm you are left with confusion as to what is the Truth.
There are now over 30,000 different interpretation of what this Truth is that Jesus proclaimed.
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Nicea325
Guest
The Church is the Body of Christ? Yes sir, sure is no questions asked. However,what I question those who are not Catholic,which church out of thousands of different ones belomgs to the Body of Christ? I thought Christ Body is ONE,not thousands?
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Nicea325
Guest
And NO end in sight. I call it PRIDE!Indeed.
But in your paradigm you are left with confusion as to what is the Truth.
There are now over 30,000 different interpretation of what this Truth is that Jesus proclaimed.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Why do you ask?
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guanophore
Guest
No, you do not define Church more broadly. This is how the Catechism defines it. All who are validly baptized are members of tbe One Body of Christ, the Church.
There are no “qualifications” or “reluctance” attached to this.
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seamusmohr
Guest
You are playing with words! The Church is defined by Revelation, Scripture and Holy Tradition,i.e. The Ecumenical Councils! Where in any of the above does it mention the papacy? As I have pointed out previously according to your own Council Trent, Roman Catholics have to view Scripture through the Fathers! Where do the Fathers of the First Centuries or the Ecumenical Councils agree with the doctrines of JUrisdiction or Infallibility!Or does this mean that Roman Catholics have abandoned Trent?
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seamusmohr
Guest
Dear Brother in Christ!
I agree with you fully, as does every Anglican I know! So who is keeping us apart? My Church believes in all the Catholic verities, So why is there a rift between English, or Anglican Catholics and Roman Catholics?
You must tell us, I’m sure all are quite willing to listen,indeed eager to hear your reasons you yourself fail the Communion test?
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guanophore
Guest
Pope JPII’s teaching on this subject meets the criteria for infallibility.
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
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seamusmohr
Guest
King Henry did not leave the Catholic Church, he had a personal quarrel with the primate of the West. The Catholic Church in England pointed out that according to the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils no bishop may enter or interfere in another see!
has Rome abandoned the teachings of the Councils!
Interesting! Just where did the English go wrong? What part of the faith did they abandon?
Being a member of the Roman Catholic Church as you are, I should agree with you. But your Church is not the Catholic Church! It is no other than the Suburbicarian Church of Rome /Italy grown large with an influx of members after the Council of Trent!
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guanophore
Guest
Well, we are getting warm. There are certain specific conditions must be met by the Teaching Authoirty appointed by Christ for infallibility to exist. You are correct that individuals can, and do, err. But, when the HS is working through the Magesterium, as in Acts (council of Jerusalem) we can say “it seemed right to the HS and to us”…
No. I don;t think that passage demonstrates this “often” happened. However, I agree with yoiur point that individuals can and do err, including those in positions of authority. This still does not equate the Church sinning, though.
No, Edwin, this is not the case. Jesus is not a liar, and has ALWAYS provided leading. However, I think we are in agreement that the leadership does not always FOLLOW the leading of the HS. They have the freedome to refuse, and to sin.
A just question. But, by definition, when one sins, whether it is a leader or not , they depart from the unity of the faith in the Church.
It seems that perhaps your defiinition of “church” may be too small.
It seems that you are frustrated because we believe the promises o fChrist that He would lead the Church into all truth.
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seamusmohr
Guest
“Not playing by the rules?” The Latin Church moves the rules to suit its own game!
The Final authority to quote S.Vincent of Lerins who described the General Councils ," where such have been held," saying their ,“decisions rank first as authorised and final interpreters of scriptures.”
Bishop Field of Chester, the author of, " Of the Church,’ a classic publication. This Anglican Father described the General [Ecumenical,] Councils as the highest level of jurisdiction in the Church saying," They have supreme power,that is the bishops assembled in a general Council may interpret scripture and by their authority suppress all of them that shall disobey!"
General Councils are the instrument by which the College of Catholic Bishops ,with the help and guidance of the Holy Ghost, work God’s will upon the Catholic Church!
The Bishops in Council are the final arbiter!
Actually, there are 30,000 and 2.Indeed.
But in your paradigm you are left with confusion as to what is the Truth.
There are now over 30,000 different interpretation of what this Truth is that Jesus proclaimed.
Jon
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rinnie
Guest
Amen. And this is exactly what I am talking about. This is where People take what the Pope said and years down the road and try to turn in around on him. Or as you say Edwin change things.
The Pope said. It IS NOT THAT IS IS UNWILLING to ordain women, but that he has not had it revealed to him by the Holy Spirit to do so.
So he said unless it is revealed to him by the Holy Spirit which it has not been it will stay the way it is.
These are the kind of thing’s that drive me crazy. He will be accused of saying something he did not say.
I wish so bad my Dad was here to help me do this better. But you guys must remember you have a advantage over me. You both have extensive study’s not only in the faith, but in general knowledge. I have no huge college Education.
But when I do not understand thing’s the smartest of Men or Women at times could not or it took them forever to explain to me their point. And many still at times failed to get it across.
Usually because they did not truly understand it themself.But My Dad knew how to explain it easy and to the point. I wanted to write that on his tomb stone. Those were his famous words GET TO THE POINT
And here it is. Listen up Edwin you will enjoy this
The Pope does not know everything. He only know’s what is revealed to him by God. And there is alot of thing’s that have not been revealed yet
Now am I saying new Revelation? NO!! Everything we need to know is told to the Church. Everything is written or taught to the RCC by Jesus. BUT and this is a big BUT it has not been revealed to the Pope and Bishops etc yet. If it is we will know it.
Jesus told his Apostles I will give you the words.
Now what the Pope has said is, in another way, The Holy Spirit has not revealed that to me yet. So to date I cannot ordain women. If there is ST OR SS that it is revealed it will be revealed when God says. But the Pope is saying he has not had it revealed to him to date, and if it is not revealed to him by the Holy Spirit he cannot do it. He does not have the authority to do something that has not been revealed to him by God.
Did the Pope say that it is NOT ever going to happen? I never read where he said that. All I ever heard him say that to date its not. All he can do is teach us the word of God. In the bible we know that Men were the only ones who were Priests. If it is written in the bible or ST it has not been revealed yet. If someday it is to be revealed we will be the first to know.
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rinnie
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[SIGN][/SIGN]
Where? When?
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rinnie
Guest
I don’t know. But it is such a small rift but it is a rift. I truly think I know, and I will tell you what I think it is.
In order for us to reunite you must be in full communion with Rome and the Pope won’t bend not because he does not want it so bad, because he does. But because he cannot do thing’s his way. He must do them exactly the way God says.
So there is no give and take. As sad as this is there just isn’t. I have got hate PM’s for saying this but if you truly open up your heart and listen to what I am saying you will understand it.
The Pope can only do what God tells him. If one thing goes against the teaching’s of the Church at this time he cannot turn a blind eye. He just can’t. Its his promise to God.
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rinnie
Guest
Oh Richard you are talking to me again. Usually you ignore me. When I ask you a hard question you never answer me. But I will do the Christian thing and turn the Other Cheek.
Yep I do and here is the scripture, which I have shown you at least a thousand times now. But since its one of my favorite I will show you again.
Acts 9:4 Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME? Who are you sir? The reply came JESUS the one you are persecuting.
Now you tell me Richard who was Saul persecuting the CC wasn’t he. Who did Jesus say the Catholic Church is Richard? He said ME JESUS did he not.
Now do I believe the CC is Jesus yes I do. Why? As the song says because the bible tells me so
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Contarini
Guest
Rinnie said that the Church simply was Jesus. I’m saying that the orthodox belief, that the Church is the Body of Christ, is a bit different.
How the one Body of Christ subsists within the sinful, divided, muddled groups of human beings who visibly compose her is a difficult issue no matter whether you are Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. Pretending otherwise does not make for effective apologetics (at least not in my eyes).
Note that your Communion recognizes the existence of true particular churches outside your Communion (namely the Orthodox); that Louis Bouyer went so far as to say that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are not truly divided at all (he was not speaking for the Magisterium, but his opinion has not been condemned as far as I know and he’s generally respected in orthodox Catholic circles); and that even in the case of Protestants your Communion recognizes that we are imperfectly united to the Church.
So the canard “is there one Church or many” is really pointless. That’s not remotely the question. The question is how the many divided bodies of Christians relate to the one Church.
If you really want to maintain a simple identification of the Roman Communion with the Church, then you need to take on rinnie and your other fellow-Catholics who have been insisting on this thread that the Church only exists on those rare occasions when Christ speaks formally through the Pope and/or bishops (and also in the Eucharist, according to rinnie, though apparently not in those who receive the Eucharist). At least, that’s the only sense I’ve been able to make out of their posts. Perhaps you can do better.
Edwin
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Contarini
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We are “imperfectly” united to the Church, according to Vatican Ii and the Catechism.
Most of your fellow Catholics on this thread emphasize the “imperfectly,” to the point that the affirmation is lost.
Edwin
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PRmerger
Guest
Where do these 2 differ in their interpretation of Scripture, Jon?Actually, there are 30,000 and 2.
Jon
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