When Did Rome Go Wrong?

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Contarini said:
It’s the biggest, so it gets more attention, positive and negative.

I don’t know how one would measure what church is the “most persecuted,” and I think that since there is no clear way to substantiate the claim, it just makes Catholics look whiny. Especially given how much persecuting the Catholic Church itself has done.

This is one of those really bad moves that leave me scratching my head–why does anyone think this is effective apologetics?

It isn’t surprising, given the nature of Catholic claims and the immense power that the Catholic Church has wielded historically. I’m not sure it’s actually true–I think that the kind of negative attention religious leaders get is primarily a function of the size and importance of the institutions they lead, and secondarily a function of the extent to which they have taken moral stances that the secular media find harsh or “self-righteous” (almost a meaningless concept as it’s used today). Since the Pope is the leader of the largest religious organization in the world (probably the largest organization of any kind except for the U.N. and the People’s Republic of China!), and since the Catholic Church takes stands that are unpopular with the secular world, the negative attention the Pope gets is quite understandable. Most Catholics wouldn’t behave any different if the situation were reversed–people on this forum routinely gloat over any kind of failure or scandal among those with whom they disagree.

Ted Haggard got a lot of this kind of negative attention, because he was the “leader” of an umbrella organization of American evangelicals, and because he had spoken out a lot against homosexuality and generally in favor of conservative Christian moral teaching.

I wish Catholics would just accept that all the flak is the result of their prominent position in the world, and stop whining about it so much.

Edwin
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As always Edwin always a pleasure to speak with you and Jon and hear your honest and intelligent comment.

I would hope that most Catholic’s would act different but as we both know with both of our faith’s we have great wonderful examples who get very little AIR TIME as they say. And the bad examples of our faiths who seem to have all the time they want. So yes I agree.

And yes the Pope does stand up for the truth and does have alot on his plate. And no one wants to hear that they are sinning in any faith. I can say though lately I have had many Non-Catholic’s that have actually been standing up for him more. A shock isn’t it:eek: But thats a good thing.

But may I correct you on one thing. It is not the CC that has ever persecuted anyone, it was certain leaders who have made difficult and wrong decisions. But never blame the Church for the Members of it.

In the RCC the CC is Jesus. So lets not blame him for our mistakes.😃
 
rinnie said:
But may I correct you on one thing. It is not the CC that has ever persecuted anyone, it was certain leaders who have made difficult and wrong decisions. But never blame the Church for the Members of it.
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Rinnie,

I can’t make that distinction. I think it’s a self-serving and dishonest one. This is perhaps the single decisive point on which I cannot accept Catholicism. I think that Catholicism plays a “bait and switch” with the definition of the Church, claiming authority for the Church’s leaders while denying responsibility.

It must work both ways. You can’t say that the leaders are the Church when they teach but not when they sin. Either the Church is something ineffable, above and beyond the human structures that embody it (in which case you can’t automatically say “the Church teaches” because a Pope or Council has said thus-and-so), or the Church can really be identified with the people and the concrete structures in which they operate, which means that when the people sin the Church sins.

Also, you assumed that persecuting people is always sinful. Catholics did not think so for a very long time. So this is a huge change in teaching that needs to be addressed, as your traditionalist friends will point out if you have any!

The Catholic Church explicitly taught in several places that the state should support the true religion, that error should be repressed, and even (during the late medieval and early modern periods) that heretics should be handed over to the secular power for execution. The fact that you can now claim with a straight face that “the Church” never did this shows just how slippery and convenient your definition of “the Church” is.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
It’s the biggest, so it gets more attention, positive and negative.
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I don’t know what you mean by “biggest”, Contarini. If you mean it has 1 billion members, that means there’s about 5 billion non-members, so wouldn’t that make Catholics the minority?
 
Contarini said:
Rinnie,

I can’t make that distinction. I think it’s a self-serving and dishonest one. This is perhaps the single decisive point on which I cannot accept Catholicism. I think that Catholicism plays a “bait and switch” with the definition of the Church, claiming authority for the Church’s leaders while denying responsibility.

It must work both ways. You can’t say that the leaders are the Church when they teach but not when they sin. Either the Church is something ineffable, above and beyond the human structures that embody it (in which case you can’t automatically say “the Church teaches” because a Pope or Council has said thus-and-so), or the Church can really be identified with the people and the concrete structures in which they operate, which means that when the people sin the Church sins.
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Oh, but Contarini, you ought to be able to make that distinction. It’s not that hard.

An excellent post from Kindred Soul: (bold mine)
But above, I established the difference (and I believe it is easy to see) between practical and theological matters. The Church is not perfect in all practical matters, as it is made up of imperfect men who can sin, and the Holy Spirit doesn’t forcibly guard us from sinning if we defy Him. The Church is, however, guarded from derailing the Faith theologically, since the Holy Spirit does protect the Church, when She speaks in the proper capacity (Ex Cathedra) from error. This makes all the difference in the world.
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One ought to be able to distinguish between orthopraxy and orthodoxy. 🤷
 
PRmerger said:
I don’t know what you mean by “biggest”, Contarini. If you mean it has 1 billion members, that means there’s about 5 billion non-members, so wouldn’t that make Catholics the minority?
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I’m baffled by your bafflement. “The biggest” doesn’t mean “containing the majority of all living humans.” It means “bigger than any of the others.” It implies a plurality, not a majority.

Edwin
 
PRmerger said:
Oh, but Contarini, you ought to be able to make that distinction. It’s not that hard.

An excellent post from Kindred Soul: (bold mine)

One ought to be able to distinguish between orthopraxy and orthodoxy. 🤷
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But that isn’t the distinction we are talking about. The distinction we are talking about is between members of the Church and the Church. If “the Church” is simply an abstract body of teaching, then your identification of the two distinctions has some merit. I’m not sure you want to maintain this, though. And even if you do, the fact is that members of the Church often espouse bad theology, sometimes in the name of the Church. Again, the well-documented Church support for the execution of heretics is perhaps the most notorious example.

Pope Leo X explicitly listed Luther’s opposition to the execution of heretics as one of Luther’s errors. According to Catholics today, that wasn’t the Church speaking. This is more than just a distinction between orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I’m baffled by your bafflement. “The biggest” doesn’t mean “containing the majority of all living humans.” It means “bigger than any of the others.” It implies a plurality, not a majority.

Edwin
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Why should I know that when you said “biggest” you didn’t mean “containing the majority of all living humans”?

Doesn’t “plurality” mean “relative majority”.

Clearly, the CC does not have a plurality either. 🤷
 
PRmerger said:
Why should I know that when you said “biggest” you didn’t mean “containing the majority of all living humans”?
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Because that’s not what the word “biggest” ever means. You’re being downright silly.

If I say “Goliath was the biggest human who ever lived” I do not mean that his body mass exceeded that of all other humans put together.

You are a native English-speaker, right? Bec
Doesn’t “plurality” mean “relative majority”.
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Clearly, the CC does not have a plurality either. 🤷
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I was thinking of meaning 4a.

I find this conversation almost as hilarious as it is frustrating, given how often I’ve seen Catholics on this forum brag about being the biggest. . . .

And now you want to challenge basic English usage in order to claim that you are somehow not the biggest, just because I’m using the fact in a way you don’t like!

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I find this conversation almost as hilarious as it is frustrating, given how often I’ve seen Catholics on this forum brag about being the biggest. . . .
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Could you provide some evidence of posts from Catholics bragging about this?
 
Contarini said:
And now you want to challenge basic English usage in order to claim that you are somehow not the biggest, just because I’m using the fact in a way you don’t like!

Edwin
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I think, clearly, that the commonly understood English usage of the word “biggest”, in this context, means “how many members”.

If that’s how you take the term, then our 1 billion members compared to 5 billion non-members makes us a MINORITY.

Simple math. 🤷
 
Contarini said:
But that isn’t the distinction we are talking about. The distinction we are talking about is between members of the Church and the Church.
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Yes. Exactly. Between members of the Church and the Church as a Teacher. Surely you can make a look at an issue and make a distinction between the orthodox teaching and the sinful action that resulted from separating oneself from this teaching.
If “the Church” is simply an abstract body of teaching, then your identification of the two distinctions has some merit. I’m not sure you want to maintain this, though. And even if you do, the fact is that members of the Church often espouse bad theology
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I have no argument with you, Edwin, that some members of the Church often espouse bad theology. Heck, even one of Jesus’ dearest friends espoused the worst kind of theology there could be. 🤷
 
PRmerger said:
I don’t know what you mean by “biggest”, Contarini. If you mean it has 1 billion members, that means there’s about 5 billion non-members, so wouldn’t that make Catholics the minority?
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What group is the biggest then?
 
BrianH said:
What group is the biggest then?
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Christianity is the biggest.

But with regard to the discussion with Contarini he’s claiming that Catholicism is the biggest therefore we ought not complain about being persecuted.

We are actually a minority. :sad_yes:
 
PRmerger said:
Christianity is the biggest.

But with regard to the discussion with Contarini he’s claiming that Catholicism is the biggest therefore we ought not complain about being persecuted.

We are actually a minority. :sad_yes:
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But certainly the largest body of Christians, which is what Edwin is saying. Though, at this point, I THINK Islam recently surpassed the Church in number of adherents, but I’d have to look it up.
 
Shiranui117 said:
But certainly the largest body of Christians, which is what Edwin is saying. Though, at this point, I THINK Islam recently surpassed the Church in number of adherents, but I’d have to look it up.
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He is saying that we should stop whining about being persecuted because we are the “biggest” so we get the most attention.

We are clearly NOT the biggest. We are the smallest!
 
PRmerger said:
He is saying that we should stop whining about being persecuted because we are the “biggest” so we get the most attention.

We are clearly NOT the biggest. We are the smallest!
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I would think maybe the Shakers had a better claim to that title…
 
My own uneducated opinion is that the Church of Rome went wrong at around the time of the Council of Trent. I do believe that the Council of Trent was good in some ways but not in all. I particularly dislike the way the Catholic Church seemed to outright condemn the Protestant Reformers. That said, I realize that the Vatican is not necessarily representative of the beliefs of all Catholics and therefore, I do not judge any or all Catholics.
 
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