When Did Rome Go Wrong?

[guanophore]

That is PROVIDED you are the church.

The Apostles taught that all those who are baptized into Christ are part of His One Body, the Church.

For our note the church is spiritual and not physical in nature.

And on whose behalf are you speaking? Who is the “our note”?

The Church is both spiritual and physical. How do you suppose anyone was to be able to follow His command to “take it to the Church” if there was no physical Church? Where were people to take their disputes? Into the 'spirit realm"?

Sounds like something off Harry Potter!

There's alot of churches these days saying they are THE church and are therefore infallible.  I guess that's why crimes are rising faster than the global temperature. :)

Sorry, I can’t see what the two have to do with each other.

Jesus only founded one church. He gave the gift of infallibility to that One Church.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

;

Jesus only founded one church. He gave the gift of infallibility to that One Church.

That’s what they ALL say.

 

[guanophore]

That’s what they ALL say.

Do you not believe what is written in Scripture?

When you read it, do you think that Jesus founded more than ONE CHURCH? Do you think He has more than ONE BODY?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Do you not believe what is written in Scripture?

When you read it, do you think that Jesus founded more than ONE CHURCH? Do you think He has more than ONE BODY?

So? Tiger Woods also had some mistresses, but many also claim to be his mistress. What’s your point?

 

[PRmerger]

That’s what they ALL say.

I have not heard that Methodists, Episcopalians, Assemblies of God, non-denominationals, etc etc etc have ever claimed the gift of infallibility for the churches.

Can you please provide sources for your claim, Rumpel?

No other Church claims the gift of infallibility except the CC–which makes Catholicism either grotesquely arrogant (if our claim is not true) or profoundly humble (if it is true).

 

[Contarini]

I

No other Church claims the gift of infallibility except the CC

And the Orthodox, although admittedly it doesn’t work quite the same way.

Edwin

 

[seamusmohr]

Can you please provide sources for your claim, Rumpel?
No other Church claims the gift of infallibility except the CC–which makes Catholicism either grotesquely arrogant (if our claim is not true) or profoundly humble (if it is true).

The Anglican claims the Catholic Church is infallible through the Seven Ecumenical Councils! In other words its claim is somewhat similar to the Orthodox? Infallibility is based on the guidance of the Holy Ghost through the College of Bishops!

 

[PRmerger]

The Anglican claims the Catholic Church is infallible through the Seven Ecumenical Councils! In other words its claim is somewhat similar to the Orthodox? Infallibility is based on the guidance of the Holy Ghost through the College of Bishops!

What? If the Anglicans claim the CC is infallible then why are they Anglican?

Why would you go to a church that’s not infallible when you’re acknowledging that there’s one that is?

 

[Contarini]

What? If the Anglicans claim the CC is infallible then why are they Anglican?

Anglicans obviously do not believe that the Roman Communion is the Catholic Church.

This is why the persistent requests of Catholics on this forum that we call your Communion only “the Catholic Church” and not “the Roman Catholic Church” or something of that sort are disingenuous. You at least appear not to know that we call your Communion “the Catholic Church” by courtesy, and that your claim to be the Catholic Church is in fact the point at issue between you and all other Christians.

However, seamusmohr’s position does have problems. Not only is it not held by all Anglicans (indeed I think it’s only held by a minority), but the Catholic Church it posits is indeed not identical with the Anglican Communion or any other Communion. It is, after the first millennium at least, a rather abstract entity.

Edwin

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

How could Rome go wrong, when Peter is still there?

Many confuse the Roman Catholic Church with secular powers which brings about a misunderstanding of history. The two are distinct and seperate. Give to God what belongs to God and give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar.

Another misconception of the Roman Catholic Church occurs, when many of her members actions are individually judged as the whole “Roman Catholic Church”.

The Roman Catholic Church has been battled tested, time tested, and has survived every anti-christ attack, that has come against her in every age. The Catholic Saints and Martyrs give witness and testimony to have proven faithful to the apostolic teachings under torture and threat of death throughout the ages. When could the Roman Church go wrong, when not even death can seperate us from the love of God.

Jesus built his Church upon Peter, and Peter’s bones remain in Rome today, upon this foundation the Catholic Church was built upon the blood of the Catholic martyrs and Saints, which can never be removed. Besides How can the Roman Catholic church go wrong when Jesus Christ promised to be with her unitl the consumation of the world.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Do you not believe what is written in Scripture?

When you read it, do you think that Jesus founded more than ONE CHURCH? Do you think He has more than ONE BODY?

How is one church, the body of Christ, equivalent to one institution, the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[PRmerger]

Anglicans obviously do not believe that the Roman Communion is the Catholic Church.

This is why the persistent requests of Catholics on this forum that we call your Communion only “the Catholic Church” and not “the Roman Catholic Church” or something of that sort are disingenuous. You at least appear not to know that we call your Communion “the Catholic Church” by courtesy, and that your claim to be the Catholic Church is in fact the point at issue between you and all other Christians.

Edwin

I am admittedly abysmally ignorant of Anglican/Episcopalian/Lutheran/Orthodox doctrine and how they diverge from Catholic teaching.**

So I have no idea what you mean by “my Communion”.

The CC is not Roman. There are 23 rites, one being the Latin or Roman rite.

But I am certain that you know this already, so I am not following your comment above and the point you are making.

**Just to explain why I am participating in a discussion that touches on Anglican issues …I stumbled onto this thread following some posters I like to follow (guanophore being one of my faves!). Usually discussions about justification, sanctification, regeneration, the filioque, make me eyes glaze over. So I’m just sayin’

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin
That’s what they ALL say.

And does not matter what they all say. Many are mere opinions based off ignorance of historical accuracy. And why? Because history says otherwise and no amount of denials will make it go away.

 

[guanophore]

She has already denied the incarnation and the resurrection, and this is the second bizarre comparison I have read. I think we may be dealing with someone who has a mental disorder.

 

[guanophore]

How is one church, the body of Christ, equivalent to one institution, the Roman Catholic Church?

I don’t believe I claimed it was. Neither does the Catholic Church. How did you come by this idea?

 

[Contarini]

How could Rome go wrong, when Peter is still there?

Petitio principii.

Another misconception of the Roman Catholic Church occurs, when many of her members actions are individually judged as the whole “Roman Catholic Church”.

In other words, when we use normal standards, such as outsiders might be expected to use, instead of the special standards hand-crafted by your Communion (or by “members of” your Communion?) to make sure that the verdict always comes out in your favor.

The Roman Catholic Church has been battled tested, time tested, and has survived every anti-christ attack, that has come against her in every age.

I certainly laugh when I hear people talk about whether the RCC will “survive” the latest scandals. Don’t they read history at all?

Edwin

 

[Bluegoat]

The Anglican claims the Catholic Church is infallible through the Seven Ecumenical Councils! In other words its claim is somewhat similar to the Orthodox? Infallibility is based on the guidance of the Holy Ghost through the College of Bishops!

I posted recently on an Anglican board and foolishly made the assumption that not believing in the Resurrection was clearly outside of Anglican belief. It was suggested to me quite strongly that my opinion was judgmental, setting myself up as the ABC, inflexible, and showed a Sunday School understanding of Christianity.

I think the seven Ecumenical Councils would be a big leap for many, alas.

 

[guanophore]

In other words, when we use normal standards, such as outsiders might be expected to use, instead of the special standards hand-crafted by your Communion (or by “members of” your Communion?) to make sure that the verdict always comes out in your favor.

Edwin

The verdict for sin is always unfavorable. The Church cannot sin, because her Head is Christ, and she is ensouled by the HS. IT is the divine elements that protect the Church. When men choose to depart from her, and fall into sin, they are no longer protected from the verdict. The wages of sin is always death.

 

[seamusmohr]

What? If the Anglicans claim the CC is infallible then why are they Anglican?

Why would you go to a church that’s not infallible when you’re acknowledging that there’s one that is?

Anglicans believe that they are a Communion within the Catholic Church, not the whole Church but simply a manifestation of the Body of Christ !
We do then,attend a Church that is infallible, the problem is that many of our members lack the faith through inadequate teaching!

 

[seamusmohr]

I think the seven Ecumenical Councils would be a big leap for many, alas.

It is, but that is their problem not ours! We, as Anglicans, are members of the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ. The Church is the source of the faith, it isn’t something we should put out to tender amongst liberals, Neo Anglicans!.It is the Revelation of Christ, enclosed in Scripture and interpreted and explained by the Holy Councils through the Holy Ghost! [The Seven Councils!] Far to many people look upon the Church as something we join an as long as it suits us to remain members. If we don’t agree we either try to change it or leave! But in fact, the Church being the Body of Christ we are members, good, bad or indifferent for life!
But for us who are lucky and have been taught we have little choice. It just makes the struggle, just that much more interesting!