When Did Rome Go Wrong?

[rinnie]

In Matt.25

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

rinnie do you worship the least of the brethren also?

Let me ask you rinnie do you believe the ten commandments are still valid? For instance.

Ex.20
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Or do you think that these laws were done away with (fulfilled?) in Christ. and now it’s OK to worship false gods like a church.

Richard Richard Richard. Never a dull moment with you my friend thats for sure, Okay Richard here we go. What does Jesus saying in that scripture (actually its a song in the CC) What so ever you do for the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. Another wards Richard what you do to help a brother or sister in need you do it for God. God is saying when you help one another and being kind to one another you are doing it for me instead of them. Now what that has to do with worshiping them is beyond me. But your way of thinking Richard can really throw me for a loop, No Richard many loops

But its cool Richard, you are trying my brother and thats okay.

Now what does doing something for one another have to doing with breaking the ten commandments.

Next, This is another mind blower, but lets go. What does Jesus fulfilling the O.T have to do with the ten commandments? You got me there buddy

Now next what does me saying the Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church have to do with worshipping a false god. Are you saying that Jesus CHrist is a false God? You must. Because you heard me say plain as day that Jesus CHrist is the Catholic Church.

Now who are you saying is the false God? Jesus, the Father , or the Holy Spirit? See we call that the Trinity. We call them 3 Persons made up of ONE GOD. So if us worshiping all three is worshiping false Gods Then yeah, I am in Richard… I am a sinner because I believe they are all One In Being which is God.

Now Richard the law. Here we go again, Are you a stalker Richard? Could someone other then I please explain to Richard that we are the gentile’s and we are not held under the old law we do not have to be circumcised under the Old Law that Jesus replaced it with Baptism. He cannot accept that Jesus fulfilled the Old law and gave us the New Law that we just have to be baptised now. He thinks that we are breaking one of the ten commandments.

Come on you guys. Someone other then a Catholic please explain it to him. He refuses to hear it from me. Help out our brother in need. Pleeeeeeeeeease.

 

[rinnie]

Deo, You sound like a pretty good fellow. Please explain to Richard about the Old Law and the New Law and how we are gentiles and are not held to it. Even if I get in trouble for de-railing its worth it this time.

 

[rinnie]

Deo, to start with, you are correct we do teach with word and deed. But here is the thing, we are not teaching here. When it comes to the Church there is no WE here. Do you see what I am saying.

Let me put this another way. Peter was promised by Jesus that the Advocate would come down and give him the words when he taught the word of God. Now Peter was never promised from God that he would not sin, or make mistakes in his own choices and life. Peter had free will like us. God never took away his free will. Just like he never took away the free will of the Pope in his choices. But when it comes to the Teaching of God that is never a free will of anyone. That is the Holy Spirit using that person like the Pope who offered himself up to be a spokeperson lets say for God.

Here is another way of Putting it, When we confess our sins the Priest does not forgive us or give us Absolution, its God doing it through the Priest.

So when that Priest is consecrated in Christ in Holy Orders he is FREELY giving us his will to let God speak through him. Same thing. Do you see what I am saying?

When that Pope speaks he is our Peter. Remember what Christ said, Immediately after Peters denials were predicted Jesus said Simon Simon behold satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat. But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail (now listen close to this part) and when you have turned again Strenghten your brethren. Luke 22:31-32 Now think about those words. Really read them.

Now to add a little reality to this let me tell you something my Mother always told me. She said that the devil goes after whoever is the closest to God. Why does it seem like the people who are evil never suffer like the good? Easy. She said the devil already has them he wants to turn you away from God. Think about it.

Now back to the word and deed. Yes we are to be examples for God in what we do, and what we have failed to do. But remember what I told you. The Pope does not teach from his word it is Gods word. He cannot say what he thinks or feels, Oh he can say what he thinks and feel, but he cannot say it is the word of God.

When he speaks in GODS name its GODS name. God promised us that. It comes from the Holy Spirit not the Pope or Bishops. Do you understand what I am saying and did I answer what you asked of me.

Also if what you are asking is should the Pope be perfect? Yep! Just like we SHOULD. Should he be an example? Yep just like we should. We just expect him to be less human because he is the Pope. We forget that the more you are asked to do from God the more the devil is after you. Why? Because its simple. If we fail as humans and sin we make ourself look bad and God look bad. Especially when we try to do what he asks of us.

Why did the devil want Peter SO BAD? Because he knew how Much Peter LOVED JESUS. Why does the devil want the POPE SO BAD, You got it!

 

[PRmerger]

I am frustrated by the gap between the ideal of Catholicism (which I find very appealing) and the way it works out in practice.

Ah. Edwin, you can join the rest of us in this frustration. Starting with the Apostles who must have been quite “frustrated” by Judas.

It’s the old “orthodoxy vs orthopraxy” issue.

And I don’t get why one cannot distinguish between the two–unless one is intentionally being obdurate about being unable to decipher the difference.

So there are bad Catholics. It is understandable that we are a great argument not to convert. I get that. I really do. :sad_yes:

Reminds me of a quote from Chesterton, cited by Peter Kreeft here:
*G. K. Chesterton once said that the only unanswerable argument against Christianity was Christians… Similarly, the only unanswerable argument for Christianity is Christians—saintly Christians. You can argue against Mother Teresa’s theology if you are sceptical of mind, but you cannot argue against Mother Teresa unless you are hopelessly hard of heart. *

I’d like to amend that quote:

The only unanswerable argument against Catholicism is Catholics.
Similarly, the only unanswerable argument for Catholicism is Catholics—saintly Catholics.

So perhaps you can look at the Catholics like Maximiliam Kolbe, Mother Teresa, Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha and that may convince you, Edwin?

 

[PRmerger]

Or do you think that these laws were done away with (fulfilled?) in Christ. and now it’s OK to worship false gods like a church./

OR!

now do you think it’s OK to worship false gods like a bible?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Richard Richard. Never a dull moment with you my friend thats for sure, Okay Richard here we go. What does Jesus saying in that scripture (actually its a song in the CC) What so ever you do for the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. Another wards Richard what you do to help a brother or sister in need you do it for God. God is saying when you help one another and being kind to one another you are doing it for me instead of them. Now what that has to do with worshiping them is beyond me. But your way of thinking Richard can really throw me for a loop, No Richard many loops

rinnie, Remember I asked you whether you worshiped the CC to which you replied.

Yep I do and here is the scripture, which I have shown you at least a thousand times now. But since its one of my favorite I will show you again.

Acts 9:4 Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME? Who are you sir? The reply came JESUS the one you are persecuting.

Now you tell me Richard who was Saul persecuting the CC wasn’t he. Who did Jesus say the Catholic Church is Richard? He said ME JESUS did he not.

Now do I believe the CC is Jesus yes I do. Why? As the song says because the bible tells me so

Now surely you can see that Jesus is saying basically the same thing here in Matt 25 that He said in Acts 9

Matt.25

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Only this time instead of the church He identifies Himself as the least of the brethren. So, it would follow that you would also worship the least of the brethren right? So, I asked

rinnie do you worship the least of the brethren also?

Let me ask you rinnie do you believe the ten commandments are still valid? For instance.

Ex.20
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Or do you think that these laws were done away with (fulfilled?) in Christ. and now it’s OK to worship false gods like a church.

---

In Christ Richard

Now what does doing something for one another have to doing with breaking the ten commandments.

Doing something for one another has nothing to do with breaking the commandments. Worshiping something in the place of God whether it be a church or the least of the brethren does.

Next, This is another mind blower, but lets go. What does Jesus fulfilling the O.T have to do with the ten commandments? You got me there buddy

I have heard Catholics say that the commandments were fulfilled in Christ and are no longer valid. Is this what you believe?

Now next what does me saying the Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church have to do with worshipping a false god. Are you saying that Jesus CHrist is a false God? You must. Because you heard me say plain as day that Jesus CHrist is the Catholic Church.

No. I said the church is a false god. If you worship it.

Now who are you saying is the false God? Jesus, the Father , or the Holy Spirit? See we call that the Trinity. We call them 3 Persons made up of ONE GOD. So if us worshiping all three is worshiping false Gods Then yeah, I am in Richard… I am a sinner because I believe they are all One In Being which is God.

You said that you worshiped the CC rinnie. This is a false god.

Now Richard the law. Here we go again, Are you a stalker Richard? Could someone other then I please explain to Richard that we are the gentile’s and we are not held under the old law we do not have to be circumcised under the Old Law that Jesus replaced it with Baptism. He cannot accept that Jesus fulfilled the Old law and gave us the New Law that we just have to be baptised now. He thinks that we are breaking one of the ten commandments.

What do you mean by the “old law”? Do you mean the ten commandments? And if you do. Do you think that the law to not worship other gods has been done away with?

 

[guanophore]

Dear Brother in Christ!

I agree with you fully, as does every Anglican I know! So who is keeping us apart? My Church believes in all the Catholic verities, So why is there a rift between English, or Anglican Catholics and Roman Catholics?

You must tell us, I’m sure all are quite willing to listen,indeed eager to hear your reasons you yourself fail the Communion test?

All Catholics, the 22 Eastern Rites as well as the Latin (Roman) Rite recognize the unity of the Church in communion with the successor of Peter.

The rift was caused when the Anglicans became separated from the successor of Peter. It will be healed when this unity is restored.

 

[guanophore]

Amen. And this is exactly what I am talking about. This is where People take what the Pope said and years down the road and try to turn in around on him. Or as you say Edwin change things.

The Pope said. It IS NOT THAT IS IS UNWILLING to ordain women, but that he has not had it revealed to him by the Holy Spirit to do so.

He is not just saying to himself, as the present successor of Peter, but an unfailing practice of the Church from the beginning. Who is turning anything around? What people seem to want is for the successor of Peter to change that which was committed once for all to the Church.

So he said unless it is revealed to him by the Holy Spirit which it has not been it will stay the way it is.

He is saying that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women. And that if there were ever a woman that ought to be ordained, it was His Mother.

These are the kind of thing’s that drive me crazy. He will be accused of saying something he did not say.

I don’t see how. It seems pretty plain…

However, this does also happen with the Scriptures, so I can see your point.

I wish so bad my Dad was here to help me do this better. But you guys must remember you have a advantage over me. You both have extensive study’s not only in the faith, but in general knowledge. I have no huge college Education.

Your passion for the faith makes up a lot of ground.

 BUT and this is a big  BUT it has not been revealed to the Pope and Bishops etc yet.  If it is we will know it.

It seems unlikely that this practice will change.

He does not have the authority to do something that has not been revealed to him by God.

It is interesting that we get a lot of grief about the ordination of women, birth control, etc. when we appeal to this principle, but when we point out that we cannot add new doctrine for the same reason, we are told we are not following it.

Did the Pope say that it is NOT ever going to happen? I never read where he said that. All I ever heard him say that to date its not. All he can do is teach us the word of God. In the bible we know that Men were the only ones who were Priests. If it is written in the bible or ST it has not been revealed yet. If someday it is to be revealed we will be the first to know.

He says pretty strongly that it has not happened, will not happen under himself, and that it does not appear that the Church has this authority (will ever happen)

 

[MartinJordan]

Personally, I just can’t see it EVER happening and I think it really won’t make any sense for it to. Catholicism cannot get lazy, and think if the world is asking it, to better have women ordained; so all the more so It SHOULDN’T happen.

MJ

 

[seamusmohr]

t.His Church will go until the end of times. which came first, your church or the CC? which ever came first is the one found by Christ and has authority in the world to speak for God.

The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, as Anglicans , we believe that on being Baptised, we become members of Christ and Children of God. Your Church is not, to our mind, the Catholic Church.It is to use a term that seems to have gone out of fashion a,Particular Church! In history it is known as the Suburbicarian Church of Rome or Italy!

Where? When?

**
Regarding the question of altered goal posts**!
At the Council of Trent, or in the Creed of Trent which all Roman Catholics,“with firm faith believe”
',they also ,steadfastly admit and embrace Apostolical and ecclesiastical traditions…also the Holy Scriptures…" Then the New Creed goes on to say regarding Holy Scripture, “Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”

Show me a unanimous consent of the fathers on the question of Matt.16./19 ? Or on the Papal assumption of the Petrine Claims?

 

[seamusmohr]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Okay tell me this. If the RCC is not the CC then how can the Pope have a direct link to Peter. Is the Pope’s Church not the exact same Church that was led by Peter. So then if you deny that the RCC is part of the True Catholic Church then Peter’s Church was not the CC either correct?

First on,
The Pope’s link to Peter comes through Peter being in Rome. He was also in Alexandria and Antioch. Were the Bishops of those Sees inheritors of Peter’s mantle or not? S.Gregory the Great, obviously thought so, he wrote to Alexandria and said Peter’s See was in three Chairs! One couldn’t claim all the fame. Peter spoke through all of them. Further if you read the Fathers you will see that at one time any regularly ordained bishop was considered to be the voice of Peter! Those were the days when Apostolic Succession meant succession of faith as well as the mechanical transmission of orders.
No the Pope’s Church is not the, “exact same Church that was led by Peter!”
It is connected to it as is indeed the Anglican Church! The Pope’s Church is the flowering a coup detat at the Council of Trent.

Peter’s Church was the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic and the RCC is just a segment of that Church,a large one mind you, a very large one, but it has various flaws in it, one of them being the papacy!

 

[seamusmohr]

[SIGN][/SIGN]
guanophore;6839165:

All Catholics, the 22 Eastern Rites as well as the Latin (Roman) Rite recognize the unity of the Church in communion with the successor of Peter.

The rift was caused when the Anglicans became separated from the successor of Peter. It will be healed when this unity is restored.

Guanaphore.

The break with Rome was not the Anglican Church’s doing. It came in 1570 with the political adventures of the Pope in England. In fact the Church has never broken with the Church on the Continent. In wider terms the break there came with the diktaks of Trent [1564.]that supporters of Trent should leave traditional altars. This is where the Roman Catholic Church in England had its begining!

 

[seamusmohr]

rinnie:
[quoteYou tell me, What part of the Deposit of faith do you feel we are not in line with?
[/QUOTE]

The Roman Catholic Church has added to the Deposit of Faith!

There is nothing in scripture or Holy Tradition to suggest that the Bishop of Rome inherited the Petrine Claims, that he has Jurisdiction or Infallibility.

These two are the sticking points of disunity within the Holy Catholic Church! At least as far as I can see! Wiser folk will be able to develop the list.

 

[seamusmohr]

the Church in Rome is mentioned in the Bible. do you see anglican church being mentioned in the Bible?

As the Anglican Church is the Catholic Church,or was at that time,] in ‘Britain’,yes. I can see the Church being mentioned in the Bible, in Acts. The Upper Room in Jerusalem!

I can go further. Lingard, who is a well respected Roman Catholic Historian, claims that Aristobulos was the first Bishop of the British Church! He is following the martyr Archbishop of Tyre,Dorotheus. [303 AD.] ,“Aristobulos, whom Paul saluted, writing to the Romans,[Ch.16.vs10] was Bishop of Britain”. He also claimed that S.Simon Zelotes, ‘brother’ of Our Blessed Lord suffered martyrdom in Britain.

 

[wisdomseeker]

As the Anglican Church is the Catholic Church,or was at that time,] in ‘Britain’,yes. I can see the Church being mentioned in the Bible, in Acts. The Upper Room in Jerusalem!

I can go further. Lingard, who is a well respected Roman Catholic Historian, claims that Aristobulos was the first Bishop of the British Church! He is following the martyr Archbishop of Tyre,Dorotheus. [303 AD.] ,“Aristobulos, whom Paul saluted, writing to the Romans,[Ch.16.vs10] was Bishop of Britain”. He also claimed that S.Simon Zelotes, ‘brother’ of Our Blessed Lord suffered martyrdom in Britain.

 

[Contarini]

Ah. Edwin, you can join the rest of us in this frustration. Starting with the Apostles who must have been quite “frustrated” by Judas.

It’s the old “orthodoxy vs orthopraxy” issue.

And I don’t get why one cannot distinguish between the two–unless one is intentionally being obdurate about being unable to decipher the difference.

So there are bad Catholics. It is understandable that we are a great argument not to convert.

The point I have been trying to make for a lot of posts now, with apparently no success (because you force everything back into your paradigm of “true Church/bad Catholics”), is that the problems in your Communion go way beyond individual “bad Catholics,” even Popes.

Just to stick with the persecution issue, because it’s the obvious one: a lot of Catholics on this forum seem to want to believe (quite desperately) that there were these bad, power-hungry people (mostly in the government) who engaged in persecution, but “the Church” never taught that it was right. But that just won’t fly. St. Thomas More didn’t persecute heretics because he was a “bad Catholic,” but because he was a good Catholic. If he had *not *persecuted heretics, he would have thought himself to be a bad Catholic.

So please cut out the “bad Catholics” argument. That’s not what I’m talking about. I understand that my remark about the “gap” lent itself to that interpretation, but I was talking about things that are much more structural and corporate than some individual bad Catholics running around.

Edwin

 

[seamusmohr]

You really shouldn’t laugh too heartily, after all the Latin Councils of the West, Rome’s Ecumenical Councils of the middle ages, all gave precedence to England because of her antiquity. Councils such as Pisa,Constance,Sienna and Basle all gave the Anglican Church,“Superior Dignity”.

It is certainly no more humorous to claim antiquity for the English Church than to claim S.Peter for the first Bishop of Rome.

 

[tomarin]

It is certainly no more humorous to claim antiquity for the English Church than to claim S.Peter for the first Bishop of Rome.

If it’s so self-evident that England has always had its own independent church then why was the Reformation such a big deal in terms of bloody wars, civil conflicts, confiscation of property, and tumultuous social upheaval generally? If one didn’t know better one would think there had been something revolutionary about it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You really shouldn’t laugh too heartily, after all the Latin Councils of the West, Rome’s Ecumenical Councils of the middle ages, all gave precedence to England because of her antiquity. Councils such as Pisa,Constance,Sienna and Basle all gave the Anglican Church,“Superior Dignity”.

It is certainly no more humorous to claim antiquity for the English Church than to claim S.Peter for the first Bishop of Rome.

yes, she used to be a Catholic Church under Rome authority. but then, henry VIII decided to be the head of the Church so he could mary whomever he wanted to. so he took over the Catholic Church, killed his wife a devout Catholic, married another, took over the monasteries and killed any Catholic who did not submit to them. that has been quite awhile ago. but very much alive still. after that it became the church of england under the authority of the kings. do you see now what i am talking about. i am glad that so many anglicans are seeing the light and are coming back to what it once was.
i mean they are becoming Catholic again.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think Rome went wrong in the Middle Ages, when the Popes were given a certain amount of temporal authority. Dante wrote about this problem, and his solution was absolute separation of Church and State. The Church should only have spiritual authority and the State should only have temporal authority. When the two are mixed up, that is when things go terribly wrong.