When Did Rome Go Wrong?

[gurneyhalleck1]

Acronym overload alert! Acronym overload alert! Acronym overload alert!

Robin Williams as Cronaur in Good Morning Vietnam:
Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn’t we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we’d all be put out in K.P.

;6949544]It is true, though, that some Anglicans, even those accepting the common understanding re: images, seem to have more trouble with 3 dimensional things than with 2. Not all, though. For years we had a painting of the **BVM **and the Christ Child, in the Mary shrine. No problem at all when we changed it to a statue of OL of Walsingham.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Ok, I’m ready to defy you LOL…kissing money with a greedy heart making $$$ the most important thing in one’s life COULD be idolatry. Idolatry takes many forms, unfortunately. We can make a person our idol. Our Lord tells us we must choose Him over family and friends even.

Reverence for a statue with some sort of sense that the object contains a divine power, IMO, would be idolatry. My wife, born and raised in the Philippines, tells me all the time that she thinks the way thousands of filipinos trample each other each year to try to touch and kiss the black nazarene status of Jesus in order to get good health, fortune, etc. is idolatry. And she was born and raised there…watch filipino television and see people talking about how they drove hundreds of miles to kiss the statue and you hear them say that they think the statue will bring them more money in their businesses and jobs, etc. Some of them swear that they fell into $$$ after kissing it. IMO that’s idolatry. They’re assigning a mystical force or some sort of presence and greedy motivation to an inanimant object. It’s unhealthy and certainly the ancient Hebrews would’ve railed at them. I’m not comfortable with the way people put roses, flowers, and kiss the BVM statues at our parish church. They kiss the lips, feet, back to the lips, feet, then pray in front of it and talk to it and I feel uncomfortable. So there are different interpretations I think about this.

I’m not an iconoclast who thinks we should worship in a Calvinist Puritan environment. I like iconography, images, statues. But how far we go in tactile relationships with them and feeling we need them to focus ourselves shows a touch of immaturity in our relationship with God. I am sounding like J.I. Packer now. A little inspiration is great, but gross dependence on statues and images for “focus” all the time is odd IMO. But again, that’s just moi.

Kissing an inanimate object is also not idolatry.

I defy any person here to look me in the eyes and tell me, when I kiss the blank check that I found, crumpled in the dirty hamper, that I’d been frantically searching for for days, at my wits’ end, that I am idolizing the check.

I’ve been known to take a picture of my babies and kiss them when I’m dusting them off, (the photos, not the babies! ) should the spirit move me. Idolizing? Nope. Blaspheming with a kiss? Not even close. Let’s leave that to Judas.

 

[GKC]

Acronym overload alert! Acronym overload alert! Acronym overload alert!

Robin Williams as Cronaur in Good Morning Vietnam:
Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn’t we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we’d all be put out in K.P.

And PDQ, too.

GKC

 

[PRmerger]

Haha! Well, gurney, I am Philippine-born and won’t disagree with your wife’s assessment of Filipinos thinking a statue of a saint will bring them luck.

It’s (another ) example of orthodoxy vs orthopraxy. That people will take a teaching of the church (statues can be reminders of holy things) and turn it into a superstitious practice is a legacy of Original Sin and Free Will.

My point: bowing/kissing/touching/genuflecting before a statue need not be construed as an act of worship. That it can be taken to an idolatrous level is not the fault of the Church.

And I’m not going to get all offended–when I clearly could be–that you are accusing me of making money the most important thing in my life by my act of kissing a lost (blank!) check. As if.

Ok, I’m ready to defy you LOL…kissing money with a greedy heart making $$$ the most important thing in one’s life COULD be idolatry. Idolatry takes many forms, unfortunately. We can make a person our idol. Our Lord tells us we must choose Him over family and friends even.

Reverence for a statue with some sort of sense that the object contains a divine power, IMO, would be idolatry. My wife, born and raised in the Philippines, tells me all the time that she thinks the way thousands of filipinos trample each other each year to try to touch and kiss the black nazarene status of Jesus in order to get good health, fortune, etc. is idolatry. And she was born and raised there…watch filipino television and see people talking about how they drove hundreds of miles to kiss the statue and you hear them say that they think the statue will bring them more money in their businesses and jobs, etc. Some of them swear that they fell into $$$ after kissing it. IMO that’s idolatry. They’re assigning a mystical force or some sort of presence and greedy motivation to an inanimant object. It’s unhealthy and certainly the ancient Hebrews would’ve railed at them. I’m not comfortable with the way people put roses, flowers, and kiss the BVM statues at our parish church. They kiss the lips, feet, back to the lips, feet, then pray in front of it and talk to it and I feel uncomfortable. So there are different interpretations I think about this.

I’m not an iconoclast who thinks we should worship in a Calvinist Puritan environment. I like iconography, images, statues. But how far we go in tactile relationships with them and feeling we need them to focus ourselves shows a touch of immaturity in our relationship with God. I am sounding like J.I. Packer now. A little inspiration is great, but gross dependence on statues and images for “focus” all the time is odd IMO. But again, that’s just moi.

 

[Contarini]

Well, it is still certain persons falling into error, even though they seem to be a group of people acting on behalf of the whole.

But this confirms one of the reasons that Catholics believe these types of ecclesial communities are not true churches.

But as I was trying to establish in my long exchange earlier on this thread, from our perspective you’re just declaring arbitrarily that your particular group of persons is mystically connected with an ineffable something called “the Church” which *isn’t *itself a group of people, but which lends divine sanction to specific sorts of things that your group of people does.

Again, I don’t deny that the Church is the Mystical Body. But when I say this I understand “the Church” to be an actual community of people. Your position seems to distance the Mystical Body from the actual people, and I find that unacceptably spiritualizing.

In the book of Rev, Jesus is chastizing individuals. He says if they do not repent, He will take away their lampstand.

That is not how I read Rev. 2-3 at all–He seems to be addressing communities collectively. Yes, there’s a recognition that some individuals in Sardis, for instance, are worthy–but the community as a whole is what is threatened with the removal of lampstands, not individuals.

The way you frame this–the mystical Church vs. individuals–ignores the local Church, which is being addressed in Rev. 2-3.

Edwin

 

[guanophore]

It would be seeming appropriate if the Catholic church would deal with this in a very firm way, but it hasn’t. I have witnessed countless times Hispanics bowing numerously and kissing and praying to Our Mother of Guadeloupe petitioning for divine things, but nothing is done to stop this idolatry and the blasphemy against God. No excommunication, no disciplinary action, nothing. I’m just not convinced at all that the church is committed to the true Faith.

Crammer, you are suffering from some misperceptions.

Bowing and kissing are cultural expressions of honor. There is nothing inherintly wrong with them. They may seem strange to you because you are from a culture that does not practice these things.

Asking for the prayers of the faithful who have gone on before us is not idolatry. It is no different than asking for prayer from those who are still here on earth.

Petitioning for Divine things is not wrong either. Many people came to the Apostles and asked for Divine Healing, or the gift of the HS. God uses His faithful to share these gifts.

If there are people who get out of hand in their expressions of devotion to Mary, then they need to be evangelized and catechized, not thrown out. Why don’t you talk to them? This would do a lot more good than judging them and calling punishments upon them.

Are you suggesting that doctrine never changes or shape shifts regardless of the moral character surrounding it?

It is not a suggestion. It is what the Apostles beleived and taught.

 

[guanophore]

I don't petition folks in my intercessory group for things that can only be granted by God.  I ask them to pray for me, big difference.

No, Cranmer. It is the same thing. Petition means “to ask”. We are asking God, and asking them to ask God with us. What do you think it is that God will refuse at His Mother’s request?

If this is so, then why didn’t infallibility become dogma in the Catholic church until the late 19th century?

Because Dogma (formal pronouncements) are usually not made until rampant heresy is destroying the Church. For example, the NT contents were dogmatized in 382 AD, to distinguish them from the 400+ books floating around claiming to be inspired by God. However, they did not “become” the Word of God when the Dogma was pronouced. They were Scripture as soon as they were written.

 

[guanophore]

But as I was trying to establish in my long exchange earlier on this thread, from our perspective you're just declaring arbitrarily that your particular group of persons is mystically connected with an ineffable something called "the Church" which *isn't *itself a group of people, but which lends divine sanction to specific sorts of things that your group of people does.

Yes. I understand this. The Apostolic meaning of “church” is much different than the one embraced by Modern American Evangelicals. I think your definition is closer, because you recognize that the Church is more than the ‘body of believes on earth’.

Church also refers to those who are being purified, and those whose labors are ended. These members of the Church CANNOT SIN because they are preserved forever in His grace. The Church comprises those authorities appointed by Christ, in unity with the HS, who is the Soul of the Church. Yes, it does also contain the members who are also in unity with the authority appointed by Christ and the HS. But when any of those individuals, sin, they separate themselves from the Church.

I think it is difficult for people to conceive of the Bride of Christ separate from the physical body of believers on earth who are members of her.

 Again, I don't deny that the Church is the Mystical Body. But when I say this I understand "the Church" to be an actual community of people. Your position seems to distance the Mystical Body from the actual people, and I find that unacceptably spiritualizing.

The church does include actual communties of people, but much more.

 That is not how I read Rev. 2-3 at all--He seems to be addressing communities collectively. Yes, there's a recognition that some individuals in Sardis, for instance, are worthy--but the community as a whole is what is threatened with the removal of lampstands, not individuals.

It is still only the visible members of the body here on earth. The transcendent elements of the Church are not mutable by their actions. The Church is incarnational, just as Jesus was, with a Divine element, and a human one. The immuntability of the divine element of Christ is not damaged by the fallibility of the human element. He was crucified, died and buried, but his Divinity was not damaged as was His physical body. The church exissts likewise. When those in Sardis (and the other communities) sin, it does not cause the divine element of the Church to be at fault.

The way you frame this–the mystical Church vs. individuals–ignores the local Church, which is being addressed in Rev. 2-3.

No, it just does not allow the local body of belivers to comprise the whole of “church”.

Human individuals can sin. Local gatherings of believers can sin. The Church cannot sin.

 

[PRmerger]

At this council we recall what’s been done in the past, review the current norms and define again exactly what’s the expectation. Sometimes the kids complain that we are “making up new rules”, claiming we’ve “never done it this way before” when in actuality we are just pronouncing, declaring and defining a standard norm of our family

Note: in the interest of intellectual honesty I wanted to note that the above comment was written by a friend in an email. She gave me permission to post; however, I forgot to put quotation marks around her comment to acknowledge that I had not written those words!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You didn’t read my post carefully. It WASN’T my WIFE’s assessment. It was the testimony of the PEOPLE on the filipino channel themselves who had kissed and touched the statue!! They actually said in interviews “I’ve come here 300 kilometers to touch and hpoefully kiss the image of the Black Nazarene. My uncles and brother kissed it and now they’re successful in their business making more money than ever before. I believe I’ll make more money this year if I do this” yada yada. My wife didn’t cook it up, we heard them say it!?

And why you would kiss your checks is beyond me to begin with? I don’t kiss money even if it’s a great sum? I’ve gotten some good checks in my time, some a surprise and a welcome one at that in dire times and never did I start showing them affection? So we won’t explore your affection for “blank” checks either, which is even more odd LOL…

Haha! Well, gurney, I am Philippine-born and won’t disagree with your wife’s assessment of Filipinos thinking a statue of a saint will bring them luck.

It’s (another ) example of orthodoxy vs orthopraxy. That people will take a teaching of the church (statues can be reminders of holy things) and turn it into a superstitious practice is a legacy of Original Sin and Free Will.

My point: bowing/kissing/touching/genuflecting before a statue need not be construed as an act of worship. That it can be taken to an idolatrous level is not the fault of the Church.

And I’m not going to get all offended–when I clearly could be–that you are accusing me of making money the most important thing in my life by my act of kissing a lost (blank!) check. As if.

 

[Cranmer2010]

No, Cranmer. It is the same thing. Petition means “to ask”. We are asking God, and asking them to ask God with us. What do you think it is that God will refuse at His Mother’s request?

You are predispositioning yourself to see this with Catholic glasses on only and if you cannot get beyond this then I think the conversation is over. I can ask my intercessory group to pray for me, but I would not bow before them and ask them to grant me good health and money. People bow and kiss statues of Mary including Our Mother of Guadeloupe and Our Mother of Lourdes etc. asking her for, (not asking her to pray with them) things such as money, health, comforting qualities (which are from the Holy Spirit) and others. This is NOT intercessory prayer, this is idolatry and it should be stopped dead in its tracks.

Because Dogma (formal pronouncements) are usually not made until rampant heresy is destroying the Church. For example, the NT contents were dogmatized in 382 AD, to distinguish them from the 400+ books floating around claiming to be inspired by God. However, they did not “become” the Word of God when the Dogma was pronouced. They were Scripture as soon as they were written.

That doesn’t apply to all dogma. The Immaculate Conception wasn’t even a facet of the Early Church but yet became dogma, same with the Assumption. I don’t recall those being heresy sqashers.

 

[PRmerger]

You didn’t read my post carefully. It WASN’T my WIFE’s assessment. It was the testimony of the PEOPLE on the filipino channel themselves who had kissed and touched the statue!! They actually said in interviews “I’ve come here 300 kilometers to touch and hpoefully kiss the image of the Black Nazarene. My uncles and brother kissed it and now they’re successful in their business making more money than ever before. I believe I’ll make more money this year if I do this” yada yada. My wife didn’t cook it up, we heard them say it!?

And you didn’t read my post carefully. I never said your wife cooked it up.

I agree that there are many superstitious Filipino Catholics.

And why you would kiss your checks is beyond me to begin with?

It wasn’t because it was a check necessarily. It was because it “once was lost and now is found.”

I don’t kiss money even if it’s a great sum?

Fair enough.

But if you did it wouldn’t be idolatry.

 

[area52]

Did you make this fable up yourself or was it taught to you by someone else who also believes in fabrications about history?

I pray that you will come to know the truth about the Catholic Church, and that God will give you the grace to abandon these fantasies in favor of the Truth.

You can just google - Roman religion.

What is truth to you?

Do you believed in the 7 days of creation? or do you believed that you evolved from monkey? I know that this is not for this thread… but I just need to know where you stand in what is TRUTH to you…

 

[Cranmer2010]

And why you would kiss your checks is beyond me to begin with? I don’t kiss money even if it’s a great sum? I’ve gotten some good checks in my time, some a surprise and a welcome one at that in dire times and never did I start showing them affection? So we won’t explore your affection for “blank” checks either, which is even more odd LOL…

I’ve gotten some surprise money before as well and like yourself, I never idolized it. What I did was tithe out of it and give extra to the church. That showed me what God really had in store for my family and I.

 

[guanophore]

Note: in the interest of intellectual honesty I wanted to note that the above comment was written by a friend in an email. She gave me permission to post; however, I forgot to put quotation marks around her comment to acknowledge that I had not written those words!

It was a great illustration.

 

[Cranmer2010]

And you didn’t read my post carefully. I never said your wife cooked it up.

I agree that there are many superstitious Filipino Catholics.

It wasn’t because it was a check necessarily. It was because it “once was lost and now is found.”

I totally disagree with you.

 

[guanophore]

"guanophore:

No, Cranmer. It is the same thing. Petition means “to ask”. We are asking God, and asking them to ask God with us. What do you think it is that God will refuse at His Mother’s request?

You are predispositioning yourself to see this with Catholic glasses on only

Why wouldn’t I ? It is a Catholic Teaching, and only those are protected infallibly from error by the gift of the HS!

However, I can see from other points of view, I just don’t espouse them. I was a fundamentalist for a while, and thought Catholics worshipped Mary. I learned that was not true, so I don’t espouse that view any longer.

Actually, this reflects more of an Israeli perspective. Have you ever read about Solomon’s response when the Queen Mother came to visit?

and if you cannot get beyond this then I think the conversation is over.

Well, ok. If you think it is necessary for me to give up my faith in order to understand yours, then I guess you are right.

I can ask my intercessory group to pray for me, but I would not bow before them and ask them to grant me good health and money.

If God gave them these things to dispense for your benefit, maybe you might consider it.

People bow and kiss statues of Mary including Our Mother of Guadeloupe and Our Mother of Lourdes etc. asking her for, (not asking her to pray with them) things such as money, health, comforting qualities (which are from the Holy Spirit) and others.

I am in agreement with you that some people do get out of order in these ways. However, Mary can give whatever He allows her to give, and there is quite a lot. Mary was given comforting qualities by God by virtue of being a Mother. Because He gave her to His Church as Mother, we are all able to benefit from this comfort.

I would venture that people asking for money and health may have their priorities in the wrong place and that it would not matter who they ask.

This is NOT intercessory prayer, this is idolatry and it should be stopped dead in its tracks.

If you think it is idolatrous for you to ask for comfort of the Mother of Christ, then my advice would be that you not do so. But why are you so invested in denying this gracious gift to those of us who can receive it with joy?
"guanophore:

Because Dogma (formal pronouncements) are usually not made until rampant heresy is destroying the Church. For example, the NT contents were dogmatized in 382 AD, to distinguish them from the 400+ books floating around claiming to be inspired by God. However, they did not “become” the Word of God when the Dogma was pronouced. They were Scripture as soon as they were written.

That doesn’t apply to all dogma.

Yes, it does.

The Immaculate Conception wasn’t even a facet of the Early Church but yet became dogma, same with the Assumption. I don’t recall those being heresy sqashers.

Perhaps you have a little more history to study?

 

[guanophore]

I totally disagree with you.

Honestly, Cranmer, you seem very culturally stunted. Have you ever travelled outside your hometown?

Do you realize that people kiss objects as an expression of relief and gratitude?

Don’t you know some of the astranouts kissed the ground when they got back? Do you think they were committing idolatry?

Do you think this runner is worshipping the ground he runs on?http://www.worldculturepictorial.com/images/content_2/usain-bolt-kiss-ground-sprint.jpg

Try this website for a little cultural enrichment:

Since it is a custom, and not a doctrine of the faith, then you are not required to express your emotions in this way. Scripture is clear on provisions of people that suffer as you do. If you are that weak in faith, then we should not engage in such devotions in front of you, because it might cause you to stumble.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t petition folks in my intercessory group for things that can only be granted by God. I ask them to pray for me, big difference.

This is a peculiar sentiment. There’s things you pray for that are granted by God, and you pray to Him alone for this. And there’s things you ask others to pray for you that are NOT granted by God? What would those things be that you ask your intercessory group to pray for?

Can you please answer the question posed above, Cranmer? You’re presenting 2 kinds of intercessory prayer:
(a) things that can only be granted by God
and
(b) things that you ask your intercessory group for (presumably things that are not granted by God?)

So what are things in category (b) that are not granted by God that are legitimate to ask your intercessory group to pray for you?

 

[PRmerger]

That doesn’t apply to all dogma. The Immaculate Conception wasn’t even a facet of the Early Church but yet became dogma, same with the Assumption. I don’t recall those being heresy sqashers.

Cranmer, could you please respond to posts using the tools provided by the CAFs? The way you’re quoting now, when we respond to the quotes you have tucked into the dark khaki section don’t show up when we cite your post.

Please see this thread for how to correctly respond to posts.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=258783&postcount=8