When Did Rome Go Wrong?

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That is absolutely not true, Cranmer. Scripture has many examples of the faithful having to “go through” inanimate objects.

A pool of water:
[BIBLEDRB]John 9:7[/BIBLEDRB]
Peter’s shadow:
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 5:14-16[/BIBLEDRB]
Handkerchiefs and aprons:
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:11-12[/BIBLEDRB]

Good job, BTW, on learning to use the quote feature, Cranmer! Thank you! 👍
I completely understand what you are saying here. My point however was that folks did not pray TO Peter for something FROM Peter. God manifested himself through the Apostles. The Apostles had the power to bind and loose. I think you will agree with that. BUT, my point is that many folks in this day will pray to, give blatant adoration to and petition Mary for things which they expect Mary to posess and dispense upon them at her will. This is wrong and it’s idolatrous.
 
Let’s not get confused here. The things I pray for come from God. I can ask Mary and my intercessory prayer group to pray for me and with me for things like health, comfort, security from the evil one etc., but I cannot ask Mary or intercessors to grant them to me. They do not posess those things or the ability to grant them. God does and he does it through prayer as Scripture tells us.
Christians can posess and dispense whatever God allows them to grant. If you do not beleive this, then you have yet to encounter the spirit filled life.

Do you really think the disciples just made those things up? When they returned and said:

Luke.10
[1] After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.
[2] And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. …The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!”

How do you think they found that out?

Matt.10
[8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.

Do you think He was just talking to Himself, or did He intend for them to do this?
 
BUT, my point is that many folks in this day will pray to, give blatant adoration to and petition Mary for things which they expect Mary to posess and dispense upon them at her will. This is wrong and it’s idolatrous.
Well, then that is very Catholic of you to say that, Cranmer, for the Church specifically reserves* latria* to God alone.* Hyperdulia *is owed to Mary. *Dulia *to the saints.

I am heartened to see that you understand that Scripture speaks of us interceding for others, and of inanimate objects being used to produce some good, and of our petitioning holy men and women for gifts–all from God of course!
 
This is unfair to say to Cranmer as you and I both don’t know the relationship or spiritual experience he has had with Christ. You and I are not privy to what goes on in his spiritual life or his encounters with God. For all you and I know, he has a more powerful relationship with God than either of us. We simply can’t come on here and tell people they haven’t had a spirit-filled life making blanket statements like that?
Christians can posess and dispense whatever God allows them to grant. If you do not beleive this, then you have yet to encounter the spirit filled life.
 
This is unfair to say to Cranmer as you and I both don’t know the relationship or spiritual experience he has had with Christ. You and I are not privy to what goes on in his spiritual life or his encounters with God. For all you and I know, he has a more powerful relationship with God than either of us. We simply can’t come on here and tell people they haven’t had a spirit-filled life making blanket statements like that?
I agree with gurney.

GKC
 
That is your beliefs and I can only expect that you would.
Then why find fault when I do so? Catholics look at these things from the perspective of what the Apostles believed and taught.

Have you read what Solomon did when the Queen Mother entered the room?
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No, honestly I have not.
I think this will help you. Catholics consider Jesus to be eternally on the throne of David. In Israel, the Queen Mother had her own office and duties,a nd was respected as royalty, because of the status of her son.

[19] So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. [SIGN]And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her[/SIGN]; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.
[20] Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”

This is the spiritual legacy of the Son of David, and the way the Mother’s of the Kings were treated. The King would not refues His mother anything.

We, like Adonijah know that His Mother has His ear, and sits next to Him, just as she did on earth. We know that her prayers are heard and answered by Him.
I’m stating that you are not willing to treat both views in the same manner.
What makes you think not?
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It doesn't work this way.  Scripture tells us that all good things come from God.  It says nothing of how we must go through certain figures, saints etc. to receive them.
On the contrary, He set things up so that His graces flow through people. Yes, all things come from God, and He has allowed us to participate in His gracious gifts. This is why people were healed when the shadow of Peter fell on them, and handkerchiefs of Paul would heal the sick. God works through these objects to bring healing.

Do you know what happened with the bones of Elijah?
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I am not in agreement with this theology.
That is your perogative, of course. Everyone has the freedom to reject the Gospel.
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Because it is problematic at the least to expect that it must come from or at least through Mary or elsewhere other than from God directly.
Why is that problematic for you? Why are you so distrusting of God, and people who follow HIm?

Anyway, it is not a “must”. God can act however He wants. He chooses to work through His saints.
Why can we not expect to receive what it is that we need directly from God. It works for me!🙂
You can, and you do, as do we all. But God knit us into a Body and made us members one of another so that He could manifest His glory to the world. Each person has a gift that is for the building up of the Body. We are not to act like the eye saying to the hand “I have no need of you”, or in this case, the little toe saying to the womb “I have no need of you”.
 
Yes the parting of the Red Sea was for the good of him and his people, but I am quite sure that his people didn’t pray to him asking for him to part the Red Sea.
What makes you think not?

Many times the Israelites seemed to present their needs more in the form of complaints than petitions of faith, but they did often come to Moses and tell him things needed to be fixed. 😃
 
I completely understand what you are saying here. My point however was that folks did not pray TO Peter for something FROM Peter. God manifested himself through the Apostles.
I think maybe you are using a truncated understanding of prayer. In this case, it just means to petition, or to ask.

When the beggar at the gate prayed to Peter for money, he did not have any, so he gave what he had.

The disciples prayed that Paul would come over and help them learn the faith.

Acts.16
[9] And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedo’nia was standing beseeching him and saying, “Come over to Macedo’nia and help us.”

Simon prayed Peter to give him the HS. The answer to the prayer was "no’ because Peter could see that his heart was not right with God.
The Apostles had the power to bind and loose. I think you will agree with that.
He also gave them the power to heal the sick, and cast out demons.

[32] Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints that lived at Lydda.
[33] There he found a man named Aene’as, who had been bedridden for eight years and was paralyzed.
[34] And Peter said to him, “Aene’as, Jesus Christ heals you; rise and make your bed.” And immediately he rose.
[35] And all the residents of Lydda and Sharon saw him, and they turned to the Lord.
[36] Now there was at Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which means Dorcas. She was full of good works and acts of charity.
[37] In those days she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room.
[38] Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, [SIGN]hearing that Peter was there, sent two men to him entreating him, “Please come to us without delay.” [/SIGN][39] So Peter rose and went with them. And when he had come, they took him to the upper room. All the widows stood beside him weeping, and showing tunics and other garments which Dorcas made while she was with them.
[40] But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, rise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.
[41] And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive.

This is a prayer of petition, they “entreated him” to come.

We don’t believe that the grace dispensed through the saints ends when they depart from this life.

In the next chapter, men are sent to pray to Peter for the house of Cornelius. It is clear they all understand He has been given gifts and graces from God, and they want some!
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BUT, my point is that many folks in this day will pray to, give blatant adoration to and petition Mary for things which they expect Mary to posess and dispense upon them at her will.  This is wrong and it's idolatrous.
I suppose there are some wrong and idolatrous people. It is idolatry to adore any created being. However, Mary has been given great things by God, and there is no more wrong asking her for these that using Paul’s handkerchief or asking Peter to heal. The gifts are meant for the Body.

If you really believe that God has not given these gifts to people, then you are missing out on an essential part of the gospel.
 
This is unfair to say to Cranmer as you and I both don’t know the relationship or spiritual experience he has had with Christ. You and I are not privy to what goes on in his spiritual life or his encounters with God. For all you and I know, he has a more powerful relationship with God than either of us. We simply can’t come on here and tell people they haven’t had a spirit-filled life making blanket statements like that?
You are right, Gurney, as it is quite clear that his life has been touched and regenerated by the HS. I guess I am the goober this time. 😃

However, God gives gifts to people, and He intends that we use them for one antoher. Calling this idolatry is missing the mark. No eye has seen, or ear heard, what God has in store for those who love Him.
 
Oh, you’re no goober, guan. Idolatry is a tricky subject. I think many Protestants throw the charge around at Catholics frivolously, and some Catholics are too cavalier about genuinely strange idolatrous things going on around them.

Obviously kissing the Cross at Good Friday or kissing a rosary when you’re finished praying, etc. isn’t idolatry but a hardcore Calvinist would say so LOL…

Like I said, there are people who would accuse my home of being a den of idolatry as there are more icons here than Mt. Athos! LOL 😛
You are right, Gurney, as it is quite clear that his life has been touched and regenerated by the HS. I guess I am the goober this time. 😃

However, God gives gifts to people, and He intends that we use them for one antoher. Calling this idolatry is missing the mark. No eye has seen, or ear heard, what God has in store for those who love Him.
 
Originally Posted by guanophore
You are right, Gurney, as it is quite clear that his life has been touched and regenerated by the HS. I guess I am the goober this time.
However, God gives gifts to people, and He intends that we use them for one antoher. Calling this idolatry is missing the mark. No eye has seen, or ear heard, what God has in store for those who love Him.
Hey guanophore, how are you doing? 🙂

You know this is the reason why there is a body of believers (the Church) and we can’t be complete with one another because an eye can’t say to the feet “I don’t need you” or vice versa. However he also give us gifts to us not only the Saints and Mary but from what I have read, you’ve said (apparently) that only the Saints and Mary have this gifts. We too have this gifts. I don’t believe that the Saints (that are not on Earth, as we to are Saints because of Jesus) or Mary can’t really intercede because they are no longer of Earth and they aren’t omnipresent, but I know you believe otherwise they do here your prayers and help you. But my point is why not use our gifts one another with brothers actually on Earth, is this valid, for you?

God bless.
 
However he also give us gifts to us not only the Saints and Mary but from what I have read, you’ve said (apparently) that only the Saints and Mary have this gifts.
No Catholic on this thread has said that only the Saints and Mary have this gift.
We too have this gifts. I don’t believe that the Saints (that are not on Earth, as we to are Saints because of Jesus) or Mary can’t really intercede because they are no longer of Earth
They are not of this Earth, but they are alive. Isn’t that why it’s called “Eternal LIFE” and not eternal* death?*
But my point is why not use our gifts one another with brothers actually on Earth, is this valid, for you?
God bless.
Like most Catholic answers, it’s not either/or but both/and. We can use our gifts with one another on Earth, but also those who are ALIVE in Christ (that is, they have Eternal LIFE) in heaven.

Why limit God to either/or scenarios?
 
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