When did some protestants switch to grape juice for communion services?

[DavidFilmer]

We will no doubt have to agree to disagree. Catholics of course as well must believe in transubstantiation. A former Catholic priest, now an Episcopalian priest

He’s married, right?

explained the Episcopal Eucharist to me in this way.

"Episcopalians believe Jesus is truly present. The communion minister says to the person, the Body of Christ/the Blood of Christ, the Bread of Heaven/The Cup of Salvation, to which the person responds Amen. We don’t know exactly how or when it becomes Christ’s body and blood. But it is a real presence.

So what happens if the communion minister says “the Body of Christ” and the person snatches the host and says, “Bu** S***, that’s just a cracker” and consumes it. Did that person consume the Body of Christ?

In Catholic theology, that person consumed the Body of Christ (in a sacrilegious manner). In Anglican theology, that person consumed a bit of bread.

THAT is what Catholics mean by a “real presence.” It is REAL. We might not know how or exactly when it becomes the Body/Blood, but East and West agree that it happens before it is offered to or consumed by anyone (including the priest).

 

[DavidFilmer]

IWhile people might have had ideas about using grape juice before Welch there was no way the theology could be put into practice.

Sure it could. You could squeeze raisins. Catholic priests have done this for centuries in locales (such as very cold areas) where fresh juice or wine was not available. Obviously they then allowed the juice to ferment into wine. This wine would not win any awards for taste, BTW.

This would produce a very low yield (measured in drops). In Catholic theology, only the minister (priest) is required to consume under both types (bread/wine), and the quantity of either is irrelevant. So a drop of nasty raisin-wine would be perfectly valid for Eucharist.

But this is ANOTHER thing that I wonder about. For those Christian faiths which insist on using grape juice (which comprise MOST protestants), is it sufficient for the minister to consume a drop of grape juice, or is everyone expected to consume a drop?

 

[exnihilo]

Sure it could. You could squeeze raisins. Catholic priests have done this for centuries in locales (such as very cold areas) where fresh juice or wine was not available. Obviously they then allowed the juice to ferment into wine. This wine would not win any awards for taste, BTW.

This would produce a very low yield (measured in drops). In Catholic theology, only the minister (priest) is required to consume under both types (bread/wine), and the quantity of either is irrelevant. So a drop of nasty raisin-wine would be perfectly valid for Eucharist.

But this is ANOTHER thing that I wonder about. For those Christian faiths which insist on using grape juice (which comprise MOST protestants), is it sufficient for the minister to consume a drop of grape juice, or is everyone expected to consume a drop?

I would agree that it is not absolutely impossible. I’ve never squeezed raisins for juice so I have no idea how effective that is.

I don’t know that grape juice Protestants have a rigorously defined idea about what is necessary for communion. I doubt any think that the minister must consume some amount no matter how small. I would think that for most everyone consuming is the idea. Some might be Ultraquists. Or If not actually Ultraquists at least think it improper for the laity to not be offered the cup even if due to lack of substance.

 

[John_Lazarus]

I remember reading about this years ago and my understanding was for all practical purposes Welch invented it simply because it was basically impossible to have grape juice prior to his invention. Grape juice naturally ferments. In fact I know of a funny story about a Baptist church. They used grape juice of course. I forget the exact details but they had left some communion grape juice out overnight. It was summer in a particularly hot part of the South. The AC had failed in the church. When someone walked in the next day the church reeked of alcohol. The pasteurized grape juice had started to ferment.

It’s a miracle!!! :bowdown: