When did the alleged corruption begin?

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Hi Jon,

I have been meaning to ask you. Have you ever considered the Orthodox church? What are some major doctrinal differences between the Lutheran church you attend and the EO church? Just curious.

Also, regarding Canon 6, have you ever read this?

Grace and peace be with you, brother.
The Orthodox Church didn’t agree with the Lutheran churches and their Augsburg Confession. Also, Lutheranism and Calvinism were condemned as heresies at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672.

The Three Answers of Patriarch Jeremiah II
 
I’m not sure you’d call it corruption, but it seems to me that “alternate doctrines” arose not much after the apostles received the Holy Spirit and the church was born. Much of the book of Acts and the epistles deals with other doctrines that were arising.
 
The Orthodox Church didn’t agree with the Lutheran churches and their Augsburg Confession. Also, Lutheranism and Calvinism were condemned as heresies at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672.

The Three Answers of Patriarch Jeremiah II
Hi Methos,

Thank you for your reply. I was asking Jon about Orthodoxy because his beliefs are very similar to the Catholic Church’s beliefs. The biggest problem Jon has with Catholicism is the infallibility of the pope and the universal jurisdiction. Jon believes that the Orthodox Church has it right when it comes to those ideas. Knowing that, I was wondering if Jon had ever considered Orthodoxy. But his answer makes a lot of sense. Jon is a Western Christian and is not comfortable being an Eastern Christian.

God bless you.
 
I would like to ask my Protestant friends in their point of view when the Church began teaching her corrupt of at least incorrect doctrines?
I note that, although your question was directed to Protestants, you received this answer.
The answer is never! Problem I encounter with most non-Catholics is they have the slighest idea about doctrinal development. They believe doctrines such as Papal Infallibility was invented in 1870,thus it is false. Well my counter argument is then why do the accept the doctrine of the Trinity and Incarnation all ratified over 300 years later after Christ? Jesus never said all Truth would be given by specific period in time. God is eternal so how would finite creatures even be capable of getting it "all’ in an instant point in time?
Nicea325 may be right…many Protestants might not have the “slighest idea about doctrinal development.” It might also be the case that many Protestants don’t envision that all developments would be without error.

As such, the answer to your question is very much related to Nicea325’s remark. Quite a bit of the perceived corruption occurred by development…so one can’t necessarily provide a start date.

You should also note that I wouldn’t blame/credit the Church (let alone the CC) with the bad teachings of some of her members any more than I would blame/credit the Church with the bad behavior of some of her members…in those cases it is just the sinful members exercising their God given freedom and doing what comes naturally
 
Nicea325 may be right…many Protestants might not have the “slighest idea about doctrinal development.” It might also be the case that many Protestants don’t envision that all developments would be without error.
So what doctrine is in error? Trinity? Incarnation? Resurrection? Canon of Scripture? Hell?
As such, the answer to your question is very much related to Nicea325’s remark. Quite a bit of the perceived corruption occurred by development…so one can’t necessarily provide a start date.
So development is the root of all corruption?
You should also note that I wouldn’t blame/credit the Church (let alone the CC) with the bad teachings of some of her members any more than I would blame/credit the Church with the bad behavior of some of her members…in those cases it is just the sinful members exercising their God given freedom and doing what comes naturally
Precisely why Christ came to save the sinners and a His Church for the sinners.
 
So what doctrine is in error? Trinity? Incarnation? Resurrection? Canon of Scripture? Hell?
I would have thought that, if you had interacted enough with non-Catholics to have properly formed this opinion: “Problem I encounter with most non-Catholics is they have the slighest idea about doctrinal development. They believe doctrines such as Papal Infallibility was invented in 1870,thus it is false.”

…then you shouldn’t have had to ask that question.
So development is the root of all corruption?
no, man’s fallibility is at the root of all corruption…developing doctrine is just one of many things that man does imperfectly.
Precisely why Christ came to save the sinners and a His Church for the sinners.
expressing what is on our minds in a coherent fashion is another thing that we do imperfectly. 😉
 
I’m sure there were always corrupt individuals - they go back all the way to Judas.

But when did the Catholic Church, per se, begin teaching real error on significant issues? I would say this began when she began to believe that she could unilaterally impose teachings downward on the Church, and that growing belief was itself the first real mistake, and the cause of the rest.

The only way the early Church had to work through difficult teachings and know the results were correct was for the whole Church to work them out together, usually in an ecumenical council. That is how we know the mind of the Church. Once Rome thought it could impose ideas, it became possible for them to go into erroneous teachings. That caused the schism, and that is why almost all controversial teachings are post-schism.

So in the present divided church, it can be very difficult to discern whether a teaching is correct, since there is no way for everyone to discuss and come to conclusions about teachings that are controversial.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
So what doctrine is in error? Trinity? Incarnation? Resurrection? Canon of Scripture? Hell?
I would have thought that, if you had interacted enough with non-Catholics to have properly formed this opinion: “Problem I encounter with most non-Catholics is they have the slighest idea about doctrinal development. They believe doctrines such as Papal Infallibility was invented in 1870,thus it is false.”
…then you shouldn’t have had to ask that question.
First of all, I did not ask a question, I made a statement. Second, it is not an opinion,but a fact many Protestants have no clue about doctrinal development.
Quote:
So development is the root of all corruption?
no, man’s fallibility is at the root of all corruption…developing doctrine is just one of many things that man does imperfectly.
Which begs the question: Are the doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation-false?
 
I’d be interested in your sources. I’m no true historian, more a hobbyist, but from what I’ve read, it seems the tactics you’re referring to, when we see them in the early centuries of the Church, were used predominately by the various heretical branches, and much less often by the orthodox bishops, who were more likely the victims. Indeed, the Arians were infamous for persecutions, backed by emperors and aristocrats, driving many into exile.

Before that, though, before the 4th century, when the Church was still essentially illegal in Rome, there was little opportunity for the systematic persecution of opponents that you suggest, particularly anything in an official capacity. It is also difficult for a minority to persecute a majority, particularly when the majority holds the political power–as in the case of the Arians. Which is why it is all the more miraculous that the true doctrine of the Church was preserved (in the See of Rome) against such hostilities, eventually overcoming them.
No, I don’t have sources right now. I tried to find them in my 100’s of favorites and I can’t find them yet. If I do find them, then I will give them to you.
But if you read biographical sketches of the early Popes you’ll get quite a bit of information.
Information on the councils can also be found online if I could remember where… (I mean background information). You could find it if you searched. Start with each council and search that way.

Sorry, it is horrible to not be able to site one’s sources for information. I will keep searching until I find it. It might take me a few weeks.😦
 
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