When Did the direction of the Priest Change?

[thunderballs75]

I’m a woman.

Thunderballs, you’re a new member. I am an old member and I have seen it happen over and over on these forums. A thread that starts out with a simple question turns into a big thing where people accuse the popes of being pretenders to the throne and those people end up getting suspended or banned while people like me plead with the moderators to please step in and stop the thread so that seekers, new Catholics, and doubtful Catholics don’t get discouraged and lose their trust in the Pope and the Magisterium.

I guess one of my questions is this: how long has the OP been away from Mass? And along with that, why didn’t he ask the priest in his parish this question?

It is my understanding (I’m a convert) that after Vatican II, when the “vernacular Mass” was established and became the “OF” or Ordinary Form, that the priest turned around and faced the people so that they could HEAR him speak in their own heart language. I personally like it. I like to be able to hear, and unfortunately, most Catholic churches that I have been in do NOT have a state-of-the-art sound system.

Sorry about that, my mistake. Please forgive me!

 

[Ockham]

When did the direction the priest faces from ad orientem to facing the people happen, and why?

When the smoke of Satan blew in to cloud our view.

 

[Cat]

When the smoke of Satan blew in to cloud our view.

So are you saying that the priest facing the people is of SATANIC ORIGIN, and that those priests and parishes that practice this are giving in to Satan?!

I believe that even our Holy Father has celebrated Masses facing the people. So is he part of the Satanic thing, too?

I don’t know if that’s what you intended, but that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.

Honestly now! Behave yourself! Think about exactly what you’re saying. I don’t care HOW MUCH you love tradition–stop saying such nasty things about the OF Mass, which is approved by the Catholic Church!

Honestly now, get a perspective. It’s just a practice. In the U.S., when a person addresses someone else, they FACE them. It is part of our culture, and it is the polite thing to do. You would not address someone with your back to them–that would be considered extremely rude.

Of course, yes, yes, I know the Mass is not just another social interaction. I’m not a stupid OFer who doesn’t understand tradition. I’m just saying that the practice of facing people is hardly the work of Satan. As others have posted, there is plenty of historical precedent for facing the people during the Holy Mass.

At this point, my impression of traditional Catholics has dropped to below tolerance levels. Someone is going to have to give me a good reason to respect anything they say. I’m truly disgusted over the notion that the practice of the priest facing the people is of Satanic origin. This sounds like Jack T. Chick in reverse.

 

[Ockham]

Rome, May. 16, 2008 (CWNews.com) – When Pope Paul VI spoke about the “smoke of Satan” entering the Catholic Church, he was referring to liturgical abuses, according to the prelate who served as his master of ceremonies.

uvcarmel.org/2008/05/17/paul-vi-saw-liturgical-abuse-as-smoke-of-satan/

 

[jbelokur]

Honestly now, get a perspective. It’s just a practice. In the U.S., when a person addresses someone else, they FACE them. It is part of our culture, and it is the polite thing to do. You would not address someone with your back to them–that would be considered extremely rude.

While I agree with your comments, it is important to remember that it is not the gathered congregation that is being addresses in the Mass it is God and, therefore, it is toward Him the whole gathered body should be facing.

 

[FK04US]

When the smoke of Satan blew in to cloud our view.

This is a very offensive post. As a fellow Catholic, I expect an apology from you for insulting our Mass. You have no right to offend us and say that we are following a satanic ritual. This is beyond my levels of understanding different opinions, I cannot condone people, especially the ones who called themselves Catholics, demonizing my Church.

May Our Mother pray for your soul, heart, and brain.

 

[Ockham]

Honestly now, get a perspective. It’s just a practice. In the U.S., when a person addresses someone else, they FACE them. It is part of our culture, and it is the polite thing to do. You would not address someone with your back to them–that would be considered extremely rude.

Exactly. So why is the priest’s back to God.

Please read the link I posted to help your perspective.

 

[Ockham]

This is a very offensive post. As a fellow Catholic, I expect an apology from you for insulting our Mass. You have no right to offend us and say that we are following a satanic ritual. This is beyond my levels of understanding different opinions, I cannot condone people, especially the ones who called themselves Catholics, demonizing my Church.

May Our Mother pray for your soul, heart, and brain.

Did you open the link I provided or aware of who made the original “smoke of satan” comment?

 

[FK04US]

Did you open the link I provided or aware of who made the original “smoke of satan” comment?

This is my question to you: Do YOU believe that our Holy Mass in the OF has been originated from Satan? I am not asking about the opinion of a Pope who is not alive anymore or what we think about those statements. My point was to you. Are YOU saying that our Holy Mass is demonic?

I am still expecting your apologies to the faithful.

 

[Ockham]

No, our Mass is not demonic and no you’re not getting an apology from me. If you are so outraged at the “smoke of satan” comment from Pope Paul VI then write the Vatican with your official complaint.

However, liturgical abuses by their very nature distance us from the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Since these abuses along with the Novus Ordo came along, attendance at Mass and belief in the Real Presence has dropped significantly. Now I’ll ask you a question: do you see a correlation.

 

[FK04US]

No, our Mass is not demonic and no you’re not getting an apology from me. If you are so outraged at the “smoke of satan” comment from Pope Paul VI then write the Vatican with your official complaint.

However, liturgical abuses by their very nature distance us from the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Since these abuses along with the Novus Ordo came along, attendance at Mass and belief in the Real Presence has dropped significantly. Now I’ll ask you a question: do you see a correlation.

Thank you for agreeing that our Holy Mass is not demonic. As a practice of charity, you owe us an apology, but I will not judge you if you don’t. And I am not commenting any Pope’s words, but yours. So, please be ready to stand up for your comments and not hide, especially when you insult our rituals.

And I don’t know your backgorund, but anybody that has a good grasps of statistics knows that correlation does not equal causation. I do believe in the Real Presence, my parish is full, and the priest facing the congregation IS NOT a liturgical abuse. Please stop spreading missinformed comments and stop atacking our Holy Mass.

 

[Ockham]

Again, “smoke of satan” is attributed to Pope Paul VI. If you believe it to be an attack on yourself, your parish or anything else then take your complaint to the Vatican.

 

[Cluny]

While I agree with your comments, it is important to remember that it is not the gathered congregation that is being addresses in the Mass it is God and, therefore, it is toward Him the whole gathered body should be facing.

Since God is everywhere, then it doesn’t matter which way who faces, right?

 

[Robster7]

Folks,

On p. 1 of this thread, I mentioned seeing something indicating that the practice of the priest facing the people goes back to ancient times. I apologize for the delay in binging it forth.
The vague ref to “seeing something somewhere” is often associated with urban legends.

Here it is. In the St Andrew Daily Missal (1952 or 1953) on page 1687, the introductory notes for the Mass for the feast of St. Clement I, Pope and Martyr (November 23) (excerpt):

“The title-church of St Clement at Rome is of the greatest religious and archaeological interest; it shows perfectly the ancient arrangement of a Christian church: the atrium, the ambos, the chancel, **the altar facing the people, **the separate places for the clergy, faithful and catechumens.” (Emphasis added.)
Clement was martyred in A.D. 102; no date is given for the title-church.

I totally agree with the final paragraph of the Vatican doc. (below) ref’d by AmongStrangers (page 2 of this thread) re the orientation of the priest. It seems to cover numerous disputes over liturgical practices. Previously, I had seen a thread re receiving communion on the hand or the tongue. It ran for a number of disputatious pages, hence the comment anticipating a lengthy" us vs. them" debate in my first post.

In these disputes, it seems that overall view of the Mass and Eucharist is lost in squinting disputes over particular ways to do things. With hand vs. tongue debate, some seem to take such a exalted reverential view of the holiness of the Eucharist that one could wonder how anyone could imagine themselves worthy of it. Moreover, the tone of the disputes re these liturgical issues seems **at times **to neglect charity in the discussion. Anyway, below is the quote from the Vatican document.

“There is no need to give excessive importance to elements which have changed throughout the centuries. What always remains is the event celebrated in the liturgy: this is manifested through rites, signs, symbols and words which express various aspects of the mystery without, however, exhausting it, because it transcends them. Taking a rigid position and absolutizing it could become a rejection of some aspect of the truth which merits respect and acceptance.”