When did the Holy Spirit abandon the Church?

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Pax_Tibi

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My intention is not to be facetious.
I have a personal stake in this. My kids and me.

In many of these forums we hear that what was said by Aristotle, Augustine and Aquinas, (AAA) are the backbone of Christian Thought. So be it.
Would any of these gentlemen change anything they postulated, that we revere, if they had the resources we have today? (pure speculation I know: but it bothers me)

Could anything we hold from them be modified by 2000, 1600, or 500 years of knowledge? Would their intellects have absorbed new knowledge and added to or progressed from their original contributions?

Have there been no “brains” in the last 500 years? Who are the “theologians” who will take us from the Middle Ages into 2002, 2005, 2010 and beyond? Who has the Holy Spirit inspired? Does ANYONE recognize them? Is the Church capable to keep apace? It took too long to exonerate Galileo. Are we on the same pace to recognize the Holy Spirit acting today? Do we have the time to stay pertinent?

Who will make Catholicism germane to future generations?

I may be wrong. This forum seems to be trying to go backwards. “What was sufficient for the last two thousand years is good enough for me.” It is a “circle the wagons” church. Whom are we converting? Is Catholicism pertinent? Are we progressing? Some here have said that the church would be better off it was smaller.
What the hell does that mean? Would that be the opposite of what Jesus wanted?

Too many questions, I know. I don’t even know where to post this.

Am I venting? Sure. Sorry.
Thanks.
 
Darn tooting what was good enough 2,000 years ago is good enough now!

What was good enough 2,000 years ago was the TRUTH - Jesus’ truth (which is eternal - He IS the Truth). The complete ‘all truth’ which He promised to the Apostles and which hasn’t altered one particle since they first received and proclaimed it on Pentecost.

His truth, being eternal and complete, doesn’t bend with the wind of every (usually erroneous) new fad in scholarship, though it can be greatly enriched by pertinent examples of it.

‘Progression’? Progression to what, if I may ask? Error, chaos, indifferentism, relativism, perdition? Not all progressions are equal my friend.
 
I think you are venting; it’s understandable, but what LilyM says is so true!

The Church does react to the modern world, but the Church does not change her faith, her Truth. And that Truth is still converting many, me included.

To put it succinctly, whilst the Church may consider the manner in which she witnesses to the world, but the fundamental substance on which that is based does not changed. It hasn’t changed for two thousand years! 👍
 
Hebrews 13:7-9a:

"Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching."

Jesus Christ is Truth. Therefore,

Truth is not dymamic or moving, it is static or fixed.

Truth never changes - it is timeless (but those always seeking something “new” will tell you otherwise).

Truth is always black or white, but never shades of gray (but relativists will tell you it is conditional or relative. Homosexual actions cannot be immoral one day and moral the next).

Truth is like north, where the compass points. One cannot go in any other direction while proclaiming to go north by bending the compass needle to suit their desires (people are always bending the compass needle because they don’t want to give something up that is displeasing to God - sex outside of marriage, habitual lying & gossip, skipping Mass on Sundays to sleep in, etc.). Bending the compass needle is rooted in pride (not your Will God, but mine).

That which is taught by our Church Fathers is timeless. It is society - secular society which pulls us to desire change for the sake of change. New ideals don’t change the position of North, but they can bend the compass needle which has been the problem the last 40 years or so.

Church teaching, which has been influenced by the Holy Spirit cannot change lest we look upon the Holy Spirit as having made a mistake which is not possible. God is perfect and incapable of error so, with time, our understanding can be enhanced, but not contradicted when declared officially.

Perhaps instead of speaking in general terms, you would consider making a post on each specific issue with which you struggle.

As we get back to basics in the Catholic Church, with a new generation of priests teaching solid, unambiguous truths, and get out of the hippy-era, namby-pamby brand of catechesis taught from many pulpits (as in, "you can have it any way you want as long as YOUR [malformed] conscience says you can), there will be far less confusion.
 
Never.

The Holy Spirit has never abandoned the Church.

Never has, never will.

Perhaps you and the “kids” can undertake a shared reading of “The Church in the Modern World.” It’s a document that came to us from Vatican II and if you haven’t read it, absorbed it, applauded it and taught it, It might be time for you to do so.

The “kids” might be reminded that ‘our time’ is not God’s time. If we recall the Scripture that says for God, “a thousand years is as yesterday” in His sight, that puts Almighty God about two days past the crucifixion of His only begotten Son. Probably, within that time-frame, Galileo is not a matter of great priority to Him.
 
Pax_Tibi said:
Some here have said that the church would be better off it was smaller.
What the hell does that mean? Would that be the opposite of what Jesus wanted?
Click to expand...
I think it means that so many Catholics don’t really believe in the teachings of the church. Those of us who do, have to defend ourselves against attacks not only from people of the world, and from people in other religions, but from people who say they are Catholics.

It’s not that I want someone to scare them off, out of the church. I’m really glad that they are members and go to church sometimes. But I want our leaders to make it very clear that they are wrong. And, lots of them would probably leave in that case. But it has to be done.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I think it means that so many Catholics don’t really believe in the teachings of the church. Those of us who do, have to defend ourselves against attacks not only from people of the world, and from people in other religions, but from people who say they are Catholics.
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Sadly that is at times true. Some of the things I’ve heard recently (not here) from “Catholics” has left me wondering if they really are. Some people seem to like to call themselves Catholic but actively work against the social and moral teachings of the Church. 🤷
 
May I suggest, if there is an Eastern Catholic Church close by where you are, that you and your family visit there for a while.

Be at peace, the Holy Spirit has not left the Church.
 
Pax_Tibi said:
In many of these forums we hear that what was said by Aristotle, Augustine and Aquinas, (AAA) are the backbone of Christian Thought. So be it.
Would any of these gentlemen change anything they postulated, that we revere, if they had the resources we have today? (pure speculation I know: but it bothers me)

Have there been no “brains” in the last 500 years? Who are the “theologians” who will take us from the Middle Ages into 2002, 2005, 2010 and beyond? Who has the Holy Spirit inspired? Does ANYONE recognize them?
Click to expand...
I think you are right. The Galileo affair marked the point at which the centre of intellectual life left the Church. Whilst there have been significant figures who were Catholics, even a few who were clergymen or monks, they have been second rank types. There hasn’t been a towering figure like Augustine or Aquinas in the past 500 years. Newton, Darwin and Einstein were all non-Catholics, as were the influential, though wrong, moral thinkers like Marx and Nieztche.

The obvious explanation is the Protestant Reformation. It very much turned the Church in on itself, reducing it first to a political faction and then to an institution devoted to private salvation.
 
The Second Vatican Council addressed some of these issues. For example, we read from St. Cyprian that there is no salvation outside the Church. He wrote that 1700 some odd years ago, where there was only one Church. Either you were Christian or you weren’t. Nowadays, the word “Christian” is thrown around and can refer to 3 groups: Catholicism, Holy Orthodoxy, or Protestantism. So the council addressed the question, "How can we apply St. Cyprian’s teaching to today’s people. That is where we got “Dignitatis Humanae.” SSPX and other schismatic groups who didn’t like how this document was worded and such failed to distinguish the context of St. Cyprian’s documents and the documents of the Council. Is there salvation outside the Church? No, but we have 3 groups who all profess the name of Jesus Christ. So how do we upgrade the doctrine of “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus?”
 
Have there been no “brains” in the last 500 years? Who are the “theologians” who will take us from the Middle Ages into 2002, 2005, 2010 and beyond?
Click to expand...
There are many. St. Alphonsus Liguori, St. Francis de Sales, St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Thérèse of Lisieux to name a few Doctors. There are also relative contemporaries, such as Vianney, Newman, von Balthasar and Sheen. Just because the world chose to abandon the Church and worship the gods of scientific, medical and technologic progress doesn’t mean there are not brilliant theologians leading us closer to the truth.
  • Tim
 
Again, the Holy Spirit has never abandoned the Church
and the Holy Spirit will never abandon the Church.

"1 Peter 3:
9 Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. 10 For: “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep the tongue from evil and the lips from speaking deceit, 11 must turn from evil and do good, seek peace and follow after it.”

Tim, I agree with your presentation of holy teachers.
 
Watch EWTN and you will know that the Holy Spirit has NOT left the Church. There are some wonderful speakers who are every bit as convincing as some of the early church fathers.

Father Corapi, Father Groechel are some of the speakers who are very inspiring. There are also many programs on EWTN that are SO VERY inspirational. Mother Angelica was certainly led by the Holy Spirit in founding the station. Her story as written by Raymond Arroyo is one of immense faith and many mirracles. She will, no doubt, some day be known as one of the doctors of the Church. God has not stopped giving us new people to lead us in the way of the Truth. 🙂
 
Pax_Tibi said:
My intention is not to be facetious.
I have a personal stake in this. My kids and me.
Who will make Catholicism germane to future generations?
Whom are we converting?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Future saints, today and tomorrow.
D.
 
Shiphrae said:
Watch EWTN and you will know that the Holy Spirit has NOT left the Church. There are some wonderful speakers who are every bit as convincing as some of the early church fathers.

Father Corapi, Father Groechel are some of the speakers who are very inspiring. There are also many programs on EWTN that are SO VERY inspirational. Mother Angelica was certainly led by the Holy Spirit in founding the station. Her story as written by Raymond Arroyo is one of immense faith and many mirracles. She will, no doubt, some day be known as one of the doctors of the Church. God has not stopped giving us new people to lead us in the way of the Truth. 🙂
Click to expand...
Read some of Mother Angelica’s mini-books. They are not terrible by any means. There’s a lot of common sense in them, the style is neither boring nor bombastic. But would you really place those alongside St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas?
 
Read some of Mother Angelica’s mini-books. They are not terrible by any means. There’s a lot of common sense in them, the style is neither boring nor bombastic. But would you really place those alongside St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas?
Malcolm McLean

I read both the biography of Mother Angelica and the ‘Little Book of Life Lessons and Sprituality’. Both books are written by Raymond Arroyo. However the ‘Little Book of Life Lessons…’ is only edited by Raymond Arroyo. The stories and sayings are by Mother Angelica. The book would no doubt, not be considered great theological material. However the philosophy is unique and her tremendous faith is awe inspiring.

Many of Jesus’ parables and stories would not be considered earth shaking as compared to the great theologians’ writings. Jesus spoke to the masses in a language that they would understand.

St. Therese of Lisieux, ‘the Little Flower’ was declared a doctor of the Church. She certainly was not a great philosopher of theologian.

The similarity is that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. They each taught people some very important methods of following Jesus’ teachings.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
I think you are right. The Galileo affair marked the point at which the centre of intellectual life left the Church. Whilst there have been significant figures who were Catholics, even a few who were clergymen or monks, they have been second rank types. There hasn’t been a towering figure like Augustine or Aquinas in the past 500 years. Newton, Darwin and Einstein were all non-Catholics, as were the influential, though wrong, moral thinkers like Marx and Nieztche.

The obvious explanation is the Protestant Reformation. It very much turned the Church in on itself, reducing it first to a political faction and then to an institution devoted to private salvation.
Click to expand...
Only one thing to say to that… G. K. Chesterton!
 
The principles that govern human behavior do not change, The crux of the matter is learning to apply them in contemporary times. Human nature has not changed all that much. It is still prey to sin, needs a savior, and requires guidance by the Church Jesus founded. The world around us changes almost constantly and so we must become skilled in applying the ancient principles to new circumstances. As in times past there is always a lag in doing this, but there is no other option if we are going to retain our humanity. The sky has been falling and the world has been going to hell in a hand basket since the first biped stood upright and realized that fire was useful and a pointed stick could kill… We’re still here.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
Read some of Mother Angelica’s mini-books. They are not terrible by any means. There’s a lot of common sense in them, the style is neither boring nor bombastic. But would you really place those alongside St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas?
Click to expand...
If you want great theology, read ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ by Pope Benedict XVI. It is certainly an inspired book.
 
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