When did the mass change?

[Gorgias]

DavidFilmer:

Saying the whole Mass in Latin has not been continuously approved

Come again? What exactly do you mean by this?

If I had to take a guess, I think I’d say that David is conflating two notions: ‘the language in which Mass is prayed’ and ‘the 1962 Roman Missal’ (which, these days, is also known as “The Extraordinary Form of the Mass”).

Saying the whole Mass in Latin has never been something that was abrogated; rather, there were recommendations for allowing parts of the Mass to be prayed in the vernacular (in order to aid in ‘full participation’). However, the 1962 Missal was replaced by the Novus Ordo; and, only (relatively) recently was it again permitted for general use by the faithful.

 

[ProVobis]

Saying the whole Mass in Latin has never been something that was abrogated; rather, there were recommendations for allowing parts of the Mass to be prayed in the vernacular (in order to aid in ‘full participation’).

That is true. However, the ICEL was given the go ahead to translate the ENTIRE Mass into English, upon which some other languages and remote vernaculars were based. And as everyone probably knows by now, that run into some problems it took 40 years to fix. At least for the time being.

 

[Usige]

Thanks, ProVobis and Don Ruggero, for providing the references to Sacrosanctum Concilium and Musicam Sacram. Saves me the effort of trying to copy and paste from my phone.

Tarpeian Rock, its sad if your pastor did not receive any knowledge of Latin during seminary. That training is supposed to be retained for all priest. Here is an excerpt from the USCCB on Priestly Formation:

Particular attention must be given to ensure that before entering the theologate all seminarians can demonstrate that they have acquired that “knowledge of Latin which will enable them to understand and make use of so many scientific sources and of the documents of the Church,” according to the insistence of the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council.

This repeats the Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Priestly Formation, Optatam Totius. Unfortunately this stipulation has often been pushed to the side to make way for other classes in parish finances, conflict resolution, etc. All useful classes, but knowledge of Latin and Greek is very important to be able to more fully explain the faith because English translations often lose important nuances.

 

[Lormar]

Well I’ve never been to Oregon, but I kinda like the music.

Some of the parishes in my diocese do sing those parts in Latin, but as an earlier poster said, it is only during Lent. Obviously, there are many parishes in my diocese that I have not attended, so they may sing all year.

On a side note, about a year ago, I thought I heard on Catholic Answers about a diocese here in the US that was considering making Latin mandatory in all their elementary schools. Did anyone else hear this, or am I totally hearing voices in my head?

I caught that, even if the youngsters here didn’t.

 

[hadulzo]

I read somewhere there are some other vhanges coming down the pike, i read it just pertained to the music side of the Liturgy.

 

[rondirect]

The translation change five or so years ago >> (really don’t remember exactly but that is when the “And also with you” became “and with your Spirit.” The English is closer to the Latin now. (and for some of us old people who were around when the Mass was first in English it is more like that)
It is a choice of the parish to use the Latin for the Sanctus, Gloria and Agnus Dei. The Latin didn’t change. There are English versions to sing of the new translation of the Gloria and Sanctus.

That would be November 27, 2011, the First Sunday of Advent or the change in the liturgical calendar to the next year. There were many changes including the preface to the EP and the people’s responses and all mass parts (alright the Amen is the same!) The Mystery of Faith omitted “Christ Has Died” and now we have only 3 choices. The Lamb of God changed so we cannot sing “Jesus, lamb of God” or any other beginnings, like “Jesus, Bread of Life.” We can only sing “Lamb of God…” And there are others… The liturgical musicians from the big companies like OCP and GIA were happy! $$$$ LOL

 

[Elizium23]

That would be November 27, 2011, the First Sunday of Advent or the change in the liturgical calendar to the next year. There were many changes including the preface to the EP and the people’s responses and all mass parts (alright the Amen is the same!) The Mystery of Faith omitted “Christ Has Died” and now we have only 3 choices. The Lamb of God changed so we cannot sing “Jesus, lamb of God” or any other beginnings, like “Jesus, Bread of Life.” We can only sing “Lamb of God…” And there are others… The liturgical musicians from the big companies like OCP and GIA were happy! $$$$ LOL

The reiteration of a ban on tropes for the “Agnus Dei” was not particularly linked to the new English translation and was issued almost one year afterward, in 2012.

And the big liturgical music publishing houses are OVERJOYED with all vernacular translations because it means there are hundreds of different ways to set music and all the translations will change every couple of decades, so they can keep churning out bad settings en masse.

Latin propers and ordinaries are extremely bad for business, because you can write a Mass setting and have it endure for hundreds of years unchanged and copyright-free.

 

[rondirect]

The reiteration of a ban on tropes for the “Agnus Dei” was not particularly linked to the new English translation and was issued almost one year afterward, in 2012.

Agreed. I was just adding to the litany of changes since RM3. This change took me by surprise. Actually, I was 3 months late on the change!

 

[ProVobis]

Latin propers and ordinaries are extremely bad for business, because you can write a Mass setting and have it endure for hundreds of years unchanged and copyright-free.

Exactly.

I suspect that they went ALL vernacular because as long as each parish was paying for the translations, they might as well get their money’s worth out of it. Thus no Latin in spite of all Vatican attempts from Veterum Sapientia to Jubilate Deo.to use it.

 

[rondirect]

Exactly.

I suspect that they went ALL vernacular because as long as each parish was paying for the translations, they might as well get their money’s worth out of it. Thus no Latin in spite of all Vatican attempts from Veterum Sapientia to Jubilate Deo.to use it.

Might be changing the voice of this thread, but for the most part, people like the mass in their venacular and not Latin. Been there, done that. My pastor refuses anything Latin at our masses, except for an occasional Kyrie. There is that fear of losing the people from the pews! Speaking from my viewpoint only, the people want a more modern church.

 

[ProVobis]

Might be changing the voice of this thread, but for the most part, people like the mass in their venacular and not Latin. Been there, done that.

Again, it saddens me to know that all those people who used to fill up the pews and balconies with standing-room only on Sunday mornings back in the 50’s really didn’t like the Mass all that much. Had I known how they really felt, I wouldn’t have bothered memorizing the Credo, Pater Noster, and all the other responses that the Church so eloquently prepared hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And distributes freely.

And how are we supposed to know if people are so happy now? Attendance surely hasn’t improved, except maybe in Africa and Asia, where they probably need something in vernacular.

 

[Phemie]

My pastor refuses anything Latin at our masses, except for an occasional Kyrie.

He has no problem with that one because it’s Greek.

 

[rondirect]

Again, it saddens me to know that all those people who used to fill up the pews and balconies with standing-room only on Sunday mornings back in the 50’s really didn’t like the Mass all that much. Had I known how they really felt, I wouldn’t have bothered memorizing the Credo, Pater Noster, and all the other responses that the Church so eloquently prepared hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And distributes freely.

And how are we supposed to know if people are so happy now? Attendance surely hasn’t improved, except maybe in Africa and Asia, where they probably need something in vernacular.

You cannot compare the 50s to now. At that time “they” felt good about the memorizing the things you mentioned. The Catholic church back then ruled and the smaller protestant churches just existed. I was there in that protestant church and wished to be a part of the Catholic church. Things change almost daily. Who would have thought of typing on a personal computer or calling someone wirelessly back then? You would be laughed at. Today, the Catholic church faces a growing number of mega churches with superb preaching and music. We need to keep up with that momentum even though we don’t like it. If we don’t modernize, we lose, and that is why attendance has not improved. And if you want to know if the people today are happy, ask! Ask those in the pews what they like and dislike about the Catholic church today and ask those who left for the mega churches. Don’t be sad, we need to all come together and unite and see what we need to do to fill the pews again. Most will disagree with me here, but we can’t live in the past, but move forward. The Catholic Church will survive, but we must keep up with the times, liturgically (preaching) and musically. I really think our Pope is on that road.

 

[rondirect]

He has no problem with that one because it’s Greek.

LOL…I write too fast, my mind is running at full speed ahead all the time. I will run two thoughts together, knowing what I meant, but misleading to the person reading it. Me bad!

 

[Lormar]

You cannot compare the 50s to now. At that time “they” felt good about the memorizing the things you mentioned. The Catholic church back then ruled and the smaller protestant churches just existed. I was there in that protestant church and wished to be a part of the Catholic church. Things change almost daily. Who would have thought of typing on a personal computer or calling someone wirelessly back then? You would be laughed at. Today, the Catholic church faces a growing number of mega churches with superb preaching and music. We need to keep up with that momentum even though we don’t like it. If we don’t modernize, we lose, and that is why attendance has not improved. And if you want to know if the people today are happy, ask! Ask those in the pews what they like and dislike about the Catholic church today and ask those who left for the mega churches. Don’t be sad, we need to all come together and unite and see what we need to do to fill the pews again. Most will disagree with me here, but we can’t live in the past, but move forward. The Catholic Church will survive,** but we must keep up with the times, liturgically (preaching) and musically.** I really think our Pope is on that road.

Hell yeah! Incorporate some of the songs from that new satanic band Ghost into the Liturgy and let’s watch the sparks fly.

 

[rondirect]

Hell yeah! Incorporate some of the songs from that new satanic band Ghost into the Liturgy and let’s watch the sparks fly.

Now you know that is not what I mean. Your point is taken, but so mislead. Why take it from extreme to the other? With all due respect, your response meant nothing but disrespect for my thoughts and I really don’t appreciate your way of “building up others,” and your interpretation of the Gospel. So sad.

 

[Lormar]

Now you know that is not what I mean. Your point is taken, but so mislead. Why take it from extreme to the other? With all due respect, your response meant nothing but disrespect for my thoughts and I really don’t appreciate your way of “building up others,” and your interpretation of the Gospel. So sad.

What can I tell you? I’m a wretched sinner.

 

[rondirect]

What can I tell you? I’m a wretched sinner.

So glad you can admit to that. There is hope.

 

[Lormar]

So glad you can admit to that. There is hope.

Thank you, Ron. Maybe one day I can become like you.

 

[ProVobis]

And if you want to know if the people today are happy, ask!

No need to. They’ll happily shake your hand in Church, go up to receive communion, recite the prayers (maybe), then promptly cut you off in the parking lot or give you dirty stares because you don’t cut your grass to their satisfaction among other things. That’s why I attend Mass at distant locations where they’re not so many of these “happy” people around. I get more friendliness at the local senior center.