When did these things change?

[Dave_in_Dallas]

I remember a couple of things from childhood (the 70’s) that seem to have disappeared or changed from the OF Mass. Can anyone help with when and why these changed?

1. Making sign of cross after the penitential part of the introduction of the mass?
2. Change in the way the sign of the cross is made. I remember it being with 2 fingers extended (pointer finger and middle finger) and the others folded back into the palm. I think the eastern way (3 fingers was used too). But now it is open palm?
3. Bells during the eucharistic prayers.

 

[Spencerian]

I remember a couple of things from childhood (the 70’s) that seem to have disappeared or changed from the OF Mass. Can anyone help with when and why these changed?

1. Making sign of cross after the penitential part of the introduction of the mass?
2. Change in the way the sign of the cross is made. I remember it being with 2 fingers extended (pointer finger and middle finger) and the others folded back into the palm. I think the eastern way (3 fingers was used too). But now it is open palm?
3. Bells during the eucharistic prayers.

Hi, Dave.

I’ll try to source my findings as best I can, but hopefully a priest or deacon can add/correct this, too.

1. The sign of the Cross was done with the end of the penitential rite in what is now the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, but chances since the 1962 shortened the prayer of that rite and removed that text that often incorporated the sign of the Cross.
2. There appears to be no official teachings on what fingers to use in the sign of the Cross. A bit of history was found at this old thread that notes how the priest would do so–all five fingers placed together. It seems the main thing is to make a sign, no matter how many fingers. Orthodox and other churches also have different customs in making the sign, including even a change of direction (right to left instead of left to right).
3. This one I learned a bit in catechism as well on CAL. In what is now the Extraordinary Form, few of the congregation could see what was occurring or understand or hear the priest during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The bells, known as the Sanctus Bells, were rung at the time of the blessing to alert the parishioners to that particular moment. Today, bells are rung again, but more for the reverence generated by that moment and less due to unintelligibility. The use of bells, a part of the Mass for many centuries, was not banned or made obsolete by Vatican II changes, contrary to popular opinion.

 

[ElizabethPH]

1) Making sign of cross after the penitential part of the introduction of the mass?

Lots of people still do that.

 

[Pregustator]

I still make the sign of the cross at the “et vitam venturi saeculi” (I say that as if they ever chant it in Latin anymore) of the Creed (at the end of the Creed, that is to say). As I see things, the fact that various traditions have been by and large abandoned doesn’t mean that I can’t preserve them on my own.

Furthermore it irritates people, and that’s always fun.

 

[ASD]

1) Making sign of cross after the penitential part of the introduction of the mass?

Lots of people still do that.

True. I do it at both OF and EF.

Sadly, that gesture seems to have been forgotten, like many others. E.g., genuflecting toward tabernacle before entering pew, praying immediately after Mass, etc.

I wonder why? Not sure, but my impression is that people just don’t know about it, never learned it, don’t remember it, don’t feel comfortable doing it alone, etc.

Paradoxical. The vernacular Mass is supposed to make everything so clear to everybody. But, this is yet another example that seems to indicate the opposite.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Phemie]

True. I do it at both OF and EF.

Sadly, that gesture seems to have been forgotten, like many others. E.g., genuflecting toward tabernacle before entering pew, praying immediately after Mass, etc.

I wonder why? Not sure, but my impression is that people just don’t know about it, never learned it, don’t remember it, don’t feel comfortable doing it alone, etc.

Paradoxical. The vernacular Mass is supposed to make everything so clear to everybody. But, this is yet another example that seems to indicate the opposite.

Parents simply stopped teaching their kids these things and now an entire generation doesn’t even know about them.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Parents simply stopped teaching their kids these things and now an entire generation doesn’t even know about them.

They know about holding hands during the Our Father and the orans posture though.

 

[Phemie]

They know about holding hands during the Our Father and the orans posture though.

Gag!

 

[bkayw]

I’m a revert from the 70’s, I miss the bells at Eucharist.

 

[OraLabora]

I still make the sign of the cross at the “et vitam venturi saeculi” (I say that as if they ever chant it in Latin anymore) of the Creed (at the end of the Creed, that is to say).

We chant it in Latin, every Sunday.

I also bow at the words “Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.”

And just to make you guys jealous I went to Vespers this evening, in Latin, in Gregorian chant

 

[ElizabethPH]

True. I do it at both OF and EF.

Sadly, that gesture seems to have been forgotten, like many others. E.g., genuflecting toward tabernacle before entering pew, praying immediately after Mass, etc.

I wonder why? Not sure, but my impression is that people just don’t know about it, never learned it, don’t remember it, don’t feel comfortable doing it alone, etc.

Paradoxical. The vernacular Mass is supposed to make everything so clear to everybody. But, this is yet another example that seems to indicate the opposite.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

I think it’s the general lack of reverence shown at Mass now days, replaced with the more casual noisy approach. The minute the priest processes out people start socializing instead of kneeling and saying a prayer of thanks or the St. Michael prayer. It’s like it’s become all about them rather then God. But I still see people staying after to pray and plenty of people still genuflect and bless themselves after the Confetior. I don’t see too many folks strike their breast. Or even bow during this part of the Creed "For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man.
Not too many bow their heads at saying “Jesus Christ” anymore either.

How many folks have Holy Water or Holy Salt in their homes anymore.

The list goes on…

 

[John_Lilburne]

Hi, Dave.
… 2) There appears to be no official teachings on what fingers to use in the sign of the Cross. A bit of history was found at this old thread that notes how the priest would do so–all five fingers placed together. It seems the main thing is to make a sign, no matter how many fingers. Orthodox and other churches also have different customs in making the sign, including even a change of direction (right to left instead of left to right). …

I am struggling to follow your reasoning here. There are official teachings on how to make the Sign of the Cross in the Roman Rite. As I wrote in the “old thread” forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=213693 #5:

“When making the sign of the cross, he holds the palm of the right hand turned toward himself, with all the fingers joined and held straight, and makes the sign of the cross by moving this hand from head to chest and from left shoulder to right.”
The 1984 Ceremonial of Bishops quoting the 1962 Missale Romanum (Ritus servandus in celebratione Missae, III, 5).

The Ceremonial of Bishops also has that the bishop should “place his left hand on his breast, unless he is holding something” (n. 108).

From Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 44.

The Ceremonial of Bishops is a current liturgical book. It is giving specific directions on how to make the Sign of the Cross.

In case my post on the old thread, #5, was confusing, here is what is in the Ceremonial of Bishops:

Other positions for the hands
108 When the bishop signs himself with the sign of the cross or when he gives a blessing,81 he places his left hand on his breast, unless he is holding something. When he is standing at the altar and blesses the offerings or something else with his right hand, he places his left hand on the altar, unless a rubric indicates otherwise.

81 “When making the sign of the cross, he holds the palm of the right hand turned toward himself, with all the fingers joined and held straight, and makes the sign of the cross by moving this hand from head to chest and from left shoulder to right. If he blesses others or some object, he points the little finger at the person or thing to be blessed and in blessing extends the whole right hand with all the fingers joined and fully extended” (Missale Romanum, ed. 1962, Ritus servandus in celebratione Missae, III, 5).

The “81” here is a footnote.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

We chant it in Latin, every Sunday.

I also bow at the words “Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.”

And just to make you guys jealous I went to Vespers this evening, in Latin, in Gregorian chant

Do any non-Latin churches have vespers?

 

[puzzleannie]

I remember a couple of things from childhood (the 70’s) that seem to have disappeared or changed from the OF Mass. Can anyone help with when and why these changed?

1. Making sign of cross after the penitential part of the introduction of the mass?
2. Change in the way the sign of the cross is made. I remember it being with 2 fingers extended (pointer finger and middle finger) and the others folded back into the palm. I think the eastern way (3 fingers was used too). But now it is open palm?
3. Bells during the eucharistic prayers.

I don’t remember either of the first two, our church never gave up bells