When do liturgical changes go into effect?

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Proabaly won’t be until 2009 the earliest, more like 2010. This I have from a credible source. There are still traslations of the collects that need to be approved by the different bishops conferences in the English speaking world and then any changes they suggest have to go back to the Vatican.
 
Joannm said:
Proabaly won’t be until 2009 the earliest, more like 2010. This I have from a credible source. There are still traslations of the collects that need to be approved by the different bishops conferences in the English speaking world and then any changes they suggest have to go back to the Vatican.
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Plus, the most important detail of all has not been mentioned. Even after they’ve gotten their translations all in order, the whole kit-n-caboodle needs to go to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the necessary recognitio (approval). Believe me, Cardinal Arinze and his team will be going over the whole thing with a fine-toothed comb.

So, it may be that 2009 is a too optimistic of a time-table. My money is on 2011 or 2012.
 
benedictgal said:
Plus, the most important detail of all has not been mentioned. Even after they’ve gotten their translations all in order, the whole kit-n-caboodle needs to go to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the necessary recognitio (approval). Believe me, Cardinal Arinze and his team will be going over the whole thing with a fine-toothed comb.

So, it may be that 2009 is a too optimistic of a time-table. My money is on 2011 or 2012.
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The CDWDS is keeping a close eye on things, and their recognito would come pretty quickly.

the biggest thing that opposing bishops would hold on to are things like the Prefaces and the Indroits. Those are the introductions to prayers in the Mass that vary day by day ( the things the priest reads when he says “Let us Pray” and the altarboy comes and hold a big lectionary"

They are part of the Mass, so they fall under Liturgical Authenticam, but are as contraversial. But there are LOTS of those and several bishops are holding out until all of those are translated and approved before the rest of the Mass gets used.

The article mentions this

Th
e bishops still have to receive and approve other parts of the Order of Mass, such as the prefaces, and the major portion of the Roman Missal comprising the proper prayers for each Sunday or feast throughout the year
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If that is the case, we are looking at 4-5 years before we see a public Mass said with a proper translation of the current Missal.
 
Our bishop, who’s on the ICEL translation committee, said late 2009 was the expected date. At that time Canada will also implement the 2002 GIRM.
 
Phemie said:
Our bishop, who’s on the ICEL translation committee, said late 2009 was the expected date. At that time Canada will also implement the 2002 GIRM.
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Why is Canada waiting so long to implement the 2002 GIRM?
 
benedictgal said:
Why is Canada waiting so long to implement the 2002 GIRM?
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Depends who you ask. The first thing we were told is that they had to wait for both the French & the English translations to be done so they could release them at the same time. Then it was that they were waiting for idults, then it became ‘well, technically we don’t have to follow the GIRM until we get the Roman Missal of which it’s a part’. Now? Who knows.

It’s nuts really, since our ORDO is all based on the new GIRM which we aren’t supposed to know anything about – none of the references match the GIRM we are still using.
 
benedictgal said:
Why is Canada waiting so long to implement the 2002 GIRM?
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Canada is one of the countries of the English speaking world. All English speaking episcopal conferences (which also includes Pakistan, parts of Africa, India I believe and others) have to accept the translations. They will be for all the English speaking world. Each conference can also ask for adaptations for their country, which would also make the time they are implemented longer. I guess, as noted above, that since Canada is a bi-lingual country they want to also release both English and French together to avoid confusion.
 
Joannm said:
Canada is one of the countries of the English speaking world. All English speaking episcopal conferences (which also includes Pakistan, parts of Africa, India I believe and others) have to accept the translations. They will be for all the English speaking world. Each conference can also ask for adaptations for their country, which would also make the time they are implemented longer. I guess, as noted above, that since Canada is a bi-lingual country they want to also release both English and French together to avoid confusion.
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If this is the case, why has the US already implemented the new GIRM and why would our ORDO be based on it?
 
Joannm said:
Canada is one of the countries of the English speaking world. All English speaking episcopal conferences (which also includes Pakistan, parts of Africa, India I believe and others) have to accept the translations. They will be for all the English speaking world. Each conference can also ask for adaptations for their country, which would also make the time they are implemented longer. I guess, as noted above, that since Canada is a bi-lingual country they want to also release both English and French together to avoid confusion.
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Of course, many parts of the United States are bilingual. My diocese comes to mind. We are using the 2002 GIRM, but, we are also using the Mexican Roman Missal for the Spanish Masses. Supposedly, there will be a Roman MIssal for Spanish-speaking communities in the U.S., but the timetable for that is up in the air. Until such time as one exists, we are using the one from Mexico. That’s why I’m a little puzzled with Canada’s response 🤷 since we did not wait until the Spanish-language Roman Missal (for U.S. use) came out. We started using the 2002 GIRM from the get-go.
 
benedictgal said:
Of course, many parts of the United States are bilingual. My diocese comes to mind. We are using the 2002 GIRM, but, we are also using the Mexican Roman Missal for the Spanish Masses. Supposedly, there will be a Roman MIssal for Spanish-speaking communities in the U.S., but the timetable for that is up in the air. Until such time as one exists, we are using the one from Mexico. That’s why I’m a little puzzled with Canada’s response 🤷 since we did not wait until the Spanish-language Roman Missal (for U.S. use) came out. We started using the 2002 GIRM from the get-go.
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I think one big difference is that while you may have bilingual sections you are not an officially bilingual country. I’m not sure, do you have any states that are officially bilingual, Spanish/English?

I don’t think any of us have seen the 2002 GIRM unless we’ve gone to look for it on the USCCB website. It’s never been mentioned other than the ‘translation issue’ when we questioned it at the beginning.

It doesn’t really matter, I go to the Vatican website if I want to see the English version of the GIRM, or the French one for that matter since some articles are clearer in the French translation than in the English.
 
Phemie said:
I think one big difference is that while you may have bilingual sections you are not an officially bilingual country. I’m not sure, do you have any states that are officially bilingual, Spanish/English?

It doesn’t really matter, I go to the Vatican website if I want to see the English version of the GIRM, or the French one for that matter since some articles are clearer in the French translation than in the English.
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Yuo do have a point there. My diocese sits on the border with Mexico and we do have many folks from the Mexican side who come to Mass on the Texas side and, many of our Masses are celebrated in Spanish. Just a bit of FYI: We do use the Mexican lectionary (a 3-set volume) and the Mexican book of the Gospels.
 
benedictgal said:
Yuo do have a point there. My diocese sits on the border with Mexico and we do have many folks from the Mexican side who come to Mass on the Texas side and, many of our Masses are celebrated in Spanish. Just a bit of FYI: We do use the Mexican lectionary (a 3-set volume) and the Mexican book of the Gospels.
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Canada doesn’t have a Book of Gospels, since permission to use the NRSV translation that we use for the Lectionary had been rescinded before we had the BoG published. That should change now that the CCCB has agreed to change some things and there is a new Lectionary coming down the pike.

Did you know that there had been a fight for the Spanish Roman Missal translation? South America refused to accept the ‘official’ Spanish translation which was Spanish Spanish with much more formal language. They published their own translation and used it for years before Rome finally approved it.
 
Phemie said:
Canada doesn’t have a Book of Gospels, since permission to use the NRSV translation that we use for the Lectionary had been rescinded before we had the BoG published. That should change now that the CCCB has agreed to change some things and there is a new Lectionary coming down the pike.

Did you know that there had been a fight for the Spanish Roman Missal translation? South America refused to accept the ‘official’ Spanish translation which was Spanish Spanish with much more formal language. They published their own translation and used it for years before Rome finally approved it.
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I didn’t hear about that one. It’s rather interesting that the Mexican Roman Missal has very formal Spanish, using vosotros (which is the formal form of the group version of “you”–for lack of a better way of explaining it). But, many of the priests on this side (and on the Mexican side) use “ustedes” instead of the more formal “vosotros.”

What is even weirder is the fact that the Spanish version of the Book of the Chair comes from Spain. It’s really funny when the General Intercessions come up and the text reads that we are praying for our “king and queen.” The deacon just substitutes “president and governmental leaders.” One time, though, he forgot and prayed for our “beloved King, Juan Carlos.” :eek: He quickly back-tracked and made the appropriate substitution.

Phemie, not to be facetious, but since Queen Elizabeth II is the Head of State for Canada (at least I think that might be right), do y’all pray for her during the General Intercessions, or do you just pray for your Prime Minister?

It reminds me of the one and only time I got to visit Canada (Niagara Falls). Before the formal dinner, we made a toast to the Queen. Then, the host, who saw that there were many Americans decided to raise the glass to President George W. as well. 😃
 
If I’m reading the article right, it says it’s still waiting for Vatican approval. Is that pretty much automatic or is there a possibility the changes won’t be accepted?
 
benedictgal said:
Phemie, not to be facetious, but since Queen Elizabeth II is the Head of State for Canada (at least I think that might be right), do y’all pray for her during the General Intercessions, or do you just pray for your Prime Minister?

It reminds me of the one and only time I got to visit Canada (Niagara Falls). Before the formal dinner, we made a toast to the Queen. Then, the host, who saw that there were many Americans decided to raise the glass to President George W. as well. 😃
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Having been a military spouse for over 20 years and attended Mess dinners I’ve raised many a glass of port to Her Majesty, but I’ve never prayed for her by name in the General Intecessions.

We rarely mention anyone specific, praying instead for world leaders. We might pray for wisdom for our leaders when a specific issue comes up in parliament.
 
The site to check on the status on the new English translation (and a really good site in general anyway) is www.adoremus.org . The most important things to know about the new translation is that there are THREE versions. The “Green Book” is the first draft, and it has now been completed. The “Grey Book” is the revised draft, and it’s being worked on now. Some parts are further along than others. The “White Book” will be the final document. They tend to analyze the translation in sections. For example, they will work on the ordinary, or on Masses for the Dead, or on Votive Masses, or on the Holy Week Propers, and one section will tend to advance more rapidly than another. Here’s the latest official report from Vox Clara, from Adoremus:

Vox Clara: Latest Missal Report
The Vox Clara Committee, the group that advises the Congregation for Divine Worship on English-language liturgical translations, met for the fifteenth time from November 30-December 5, 2007.

According to a news release issued by Vox Clara on December 5, a major part of the work was devoted to a review of the ICEL Green Book (draft) translations for Masses for the Dead, Votive Masses, Proper of Saints II, and the Antiphons of the Roman Missal.

The members found the texts to be of a high quality, while providing the Congregation with a number of recommendations. Extensive studies of a number of terms were completed, including the use of mereor [lit., deserve, merit] throughout the Roman Missal.

The committee also carefully reviewed the ICEL Gray (revised) Book for the Proper of Seasons in light of recommendations by the Congregation following Vox Clara’s review of the ICEL Green Book version last year. This review was conducted in preparation for the submission of White Book (final) translations, following the canonical approval of these texts by the English-language episcopal conferences in the coming months, and the subsequent and concluding review by the Congregation in preparation for the granting of the recognitio.

Several other items were placed before the Vox Clara members by the Congregation concerning the confirmation of the Order of Mass, including the fine-tuning of several points of translation in the Eucharistic Prayers.

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect, and Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship, thanked Vox Clara members for their contribution in assisting the Congregation with the completion of the English-language edition of the Roman Missal. In particular, Cardinal Arinze expressed satisfaction that the completion of the project is in sight.

The Committee will meet again in September 2008.
 
Thanks, Rolltide - that was very helpful info!

Oh and by the way,
“Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to say “War Eagle” and remove all doubt.” 😉
 
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