When Do Souls Begin?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Starwynd
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Leela,

Brain death, if it is truly brain death, means that the person is irrevocably dead – all brain function, including that of the brain stem, irreversibly cease.

If someone is dead, they are dead – they don’t come back alive. At that point organs may be licitly removed.

But a living human being who has died is quite distinct from a living embryonic human being. That embryo is alive, or it isn’t. It will continue to grow and sustain its own life. A brain dead individual does not.

It’s just not a valid comparison.

VC
Hi VC,

You are suggesting that one living human cell (a zygote) is a human being while another living human cell (say, a skin cell) is not. Can you explain the difference? Neither sustains it’s own life.
Both types of cells divide to produce more cells.

Best,
Leela
 
Starwynd:

You have asked one, tough question! Why, because of the usual lack of honest communication between people, regardless of which side they choose. “Honest communication” is more than the act of speaking to another in a kindly and sincere manner. It includes taking the time to make serious inquiries into the epistemology of the subject under discussion. If one wanted to enter into a discussion about “flying” with a pilot, one ought to first study the subject. Too many people enter these discussions with too little knowledge, and too much unsubstantiated opinion.

For Catholics, the creation, by God, of the soul takes place at the front-end of the “moment of existence” of the zygote – the very first and smallest slice of time possible, as the baby comes to be. Here’s how:

First we must understand the concept of “motion” and agree to its reality, for motion is all we know through our senses. It is all that our senses deliver to our minds.

For Aristotle, “coming-to-be” was analogous with, and its predicates were the same as, the predicates of “motion”. To explain: if my left hand is raised straight up from my body and to the body’s left aspect, and, shortly thereafter, it shifts to the right side of my body, it went through a motion-process. While on the left side of my body, my hand was predicated to be in “potency” - what “potency”? - the potency to be on the right.

Once my hand is on the right, my hand is now predicated to be in “act”. (It is “actually” there, or, “actualized” in that place, if you will.) My hand “moved” from “potency” to “act”. (Of course, for “local motion”, the process may be repeated many more times, but, it’s irrelevant here.) The process of “coming-to-be”, for Aristotle was this process or “movement” from potency to act.

These are the knowable predicates of the process of “coming to be”, “potency” and “act”. These we can “know” scientifically. Under the microscope, we can view the spermatozoon enter and combine with the oocyte; we can watch the chromosomes line up; and, we can see the resulting zygote. The next part is where people have a more difficult time in the communication cycle: this is where the materialist, i.e., atheist, disconnects from communication, because, for him, there is no reason to proceed any further. For the theist, there are other considerations, or realities, such as perceptions of the metaphysical universe, the phenomena of miracles, and, his faith, that shape his thinking.

For the theist, the physical process we have just witnessed and understood must now be “converted”, in a sense, to a metaphysical process. For Aristotle, the metaphysical is understood by knowing how a piece of clay - molded into the form of a thing - comes to be a statue. Metaphysical coming to be is, thus, predicated through the lens of the physical. So, in the same manner, the Creator takes a piece of matter and gives it its existence, its uniqueness, its anima, its “form”. We give a name to the matter from which God pulls to put “form” to; we call it, “primary matter”.

The “anima” put to the “primary matter” is what gives the matter its “being”, “life”, “form”. The end-being becomes this particular man or that particular woman. The combining of form and primary matter is the process of “coming to be”, a “moving” from potency to act. Thus, the soul is the combination of matter and form, it is the “act” of the potential. The resultant being is so unique that it could not have been extant prior to its “act”. (This is the Catholic argument against “reincarnation”.) Furthermore, it consists inextricably of both its matter and its form.

The early Church affirmed this explanation, but, it was not as well understood until the time of St. Thomas. He found no failure in Aristotle’s explanation and was able to rather thoroughly define and expand upon it.

The concept of the “soul” as some kind of “ethereal spirit”, etc., is something created by men who perhaps did/could not understand the Aristotelian-Thomistic notion of the “soul” and, for simplicity’s sake, called it a “spirit” - some ethereal thing that resides somewhere in the body, near the brain, maybe. Some definitions are in order: (a) the “brain” is a physical organ of the body and it is that which “houses” the “mind”; (b) the “mind” is that which “learns” and “reasons”; and is housed in the brain, and (c), the “soul” is the “being” itself that, along with the senses, “informs” the mind and eventually passes on to heaven, hell, or in between. The word “spirit” has several meanings (“vivacity”; removed quickly, as in “spirited away”; and “soul”) of which only one is relevant.

JD
 
what about Adam’s soul?..it ‘began’ the day he was created?

Genesis 2:7
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
and man became a living soul
 
what about Adam’s soul?..it ‘began’ the day he was created?

Genesis 2:7
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
and man became a living soul
What’s your question and who is it for?

JD
 
Question for anyone.
Adam’s soul begins the day he is created…right?
Right. But, remember, he was brought into being in “adult” form. He didn’t go through the birth process that all of us go through to get here. God made him out of sand and dust. He would have been a lifeless lump of sand and dust until God “breathed life into him”. Prior to the “fall”, God worked on man differently.

JD
 
Hi VC,

You are suggesting that one living human cell (a zygote) is a human being while another living human cell (say, a skin cell) is not. Can you explain the difference? Neither sustains it’s own life.
Both types of cells divide to produce more cells.

Best,
Leela
Hi Leela,

I was attempting to engage you on your comparison between a dead human being and embryonic human being, where your point of comparison was lack of brain activity. I wanted to point out that a brain-dead (true brain-death) human being is irreversibly dead, whereas a pre-brain embryonic human is quite alive, and growing, and will remain so until some cause of death. I just didn’t think it was a valid comparison.

Your current query is whether or not I see a difference between a single-cell human being (zygote) and a single human cell. I do. This seems implicit to me by the fact that we have a different term for a zygote than we do for a cell.

I suppose we could discuss the difference. Do you see one? For instance, perhaps we could start by inquiring whether or not a human cell can grow and mature like a zygote can?

VC
 
A human zygote is a living human being because it isn’t part of another living thing, so it is a being; it isn’t lifeless, so it is living; and it isn’t any other species, so it is human. A feline zygote is a living feline being (cat). But we speak of human zygotes. Neither age nor strength are part of the equation.
 
Hi Metalkid,
What do you mean by soul?

What evidence convinces you that souls do not exist?
Perhaps you should give me your definition of the soul and evidence that you have for its existence. I need not provide evidence for my stance. The burden of proof is on you.
 
Perhaps you should give me your definition of the soul and evidence that you have for its existence. I need not provide evidence for my stance. The burden of proof is on you.
Hi Metalkid,

Personally, I use the word “soul” to mean “the self” at the most profound level. Like you, I don’t have any metaphysical notion of the soul as existing as an entity or essence?

My concern with your post is that you jumped in to claim that souls don’t exist. “How do you know?” is a fair question for such a positive assertion. I think you’d be better off remaining open to evidence for sould as you ask others for justification for their claims about souls. Like you, I doubt that such evidence will be forthcoming.

Best,
Leela
 
Hi Metalkid,

Personally, I use the word “soul” to mean “the self” at the most profound level. Like you, I don’t have any metaphysical notion of the soul as existing as an entity or essence?

My concern with your post is that you jumped in to claim that souls don’t exist. “How do you know?” is a fair question for such a positive assertion. I think you’d be better off remaining open to evidence for sould as you ask others for justification for their claims about souls. Like you, I doubt that such evidence will be forthcoming.

Best,
Leela
Would it bother you for me to say that “fairies don’t exist”? Should we remain open for evidence of fairies until we ask other people for their justification for their claims about fairies?

I understand your comments, but religious claims deserve no more respect than any other claim out there and should be subject to the same skepticism.

And if you want my “evidence” for my position that souls do not exist, I guess it would be that there is no evidence supporting their existence. . . . . although the same could be said about my little fairy example. If evidence should arise for souls (or fairies) in the future, then I’ll have to re-examine my position, but for now, we have no reason to believe that souls (or fairies) exist.
 
Would it bother you for me to say that “fairies don’t exist”? Should we remain open for evidence of fairies until we ask other people for their justification for their claims about fairies?

I understand your comments, but religious claims deserve no more respect than any other claim out there and should be subject to the same skepticism.
Hi Metalkid,

Excellent point. It is considered taboo to question religious beliefs, but this is a taboo that we can no longer afford now that people with extreme religious beliefs have access to ever more destructive technology. We need to confront bad ideas wherever we find them.

Depending on the social setting, I may choose not to comment on a religious claim as I would refrain from disagreeing with someone’s claim that their baby is cute or their child is extraordinarily talented or that their wife is pretty. But I am much quicker to hold hold religious claims to the usual conversational pressures since 9/11. I’m not sure that we still have a right not to have our myths exposed.

Best,
Leela
 
But, they do exist.

JD
Alrighty, let’s see the evidence.
Hi Metalkid,
I’m not sure that we still have a right not to have our myths exposed.
Very true. Especially when we consider the fact that children are still being taught that the earth is 6,000-10,000 years old and that a cracker and wine are the ‘actual’ flesh and blood of a 2,000 year old dead man.
 
Very true. Especially when we consider the fact that children are still being taught that the earth is 6,000-10,000 years old and that a cracker and wine are the ‘actual’ flesh and blood of a 2,000 year old dead man.
Hi Metalkid,

Bye, metalkid. It was nice conversing. I expect you’ll be banned for that sort of talk.

Best,
Leela
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top