When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial end?

[Jegudiel]

it stops with you. Encourage your priest about the last Mass, involved yourself to make changes, even if they are baby steps and it takes a while. It is apathy to say, I can’t make any changes, I can’t do it, there is no room. Those are excuses and apathy is sitting back and doing nothing and then complaining about the apathy.

I e-mailed the celebrant and the parish music director (who was the cantor that night) within an hour of the end of Mass.

 

[Jegudiel]

As a lector, you are not suppose to at all change the language, add your own stuff or ad lib the readings. I think the excuse that I can’t do something in Church because of a clique is really an excuse for not trying. The best way to have influence is to do something. If you don’t like what is going on in the reading, become a lector yourself. There is always room for new people. Yes, sometimes you have to be persistent. The last parish, it took about 6 months of no return calls before becoming a lector but I stayed with it and glad I persisted.
Sitting back and complaining is not going to change things and sometimes it only takes one person and if you don’t try and persist then you are part of the problem not part of the solution. If there is sexist ad lib going on in the lecturing then the best way to make a change is: become a lector, then document the abuse (when where who how), go to your priest with the complaint, if no change then you do have grounds to go to your regions vicar (if you have one) or the Bishop but you must start out with your parish and trying to participate is the first step.

I was a sacristan/server/reader/EMHC at my parish for almost 10 years. It was truly horrible being associated with the laypeople in charge of those ministries. Those people are the source of many problems and brutal infighting. Because of my long tenure at the parish I was able to ignore much of the garbage but it was still a very difficult environment.

The worst part was watching someone new enter one of the ministries. Each and every one would be extremely reverent at the beginning without exception. They would either leave the ministry within 90 days (or less) or they would start treating the church (and especially the sacristy) as a clubhouse. Fewer than 10-15% stayed solemn and reverent.

Your comments about the sexist reader are nice and all but they don’t apply to my parish. That woman has been complained about for years. She’s good friends with the scheduler however and the parish (and bishop) couldn’t care less about such things when contacts. I wish it was as easy as you say to correct.

 

[clem456]

Why?

With something as critically important as the Mass why do we “live” with irreverence?

Why do we have the cantor/guitarist who plays horribly and tunes his guitar during the Mass when we have plenty of other cantors and musicians?

Why hasn’t the reader been banashed once and for all who makes changes to the reading on the fly to be more appealing to sexists/feminists?

Why is a deacon allowed to proclaim the Gospel when he does it so poorly that he changes the meaning of the reading?

Why does the person in charge or altar servers not train them? Why does ferociously defend her little position at the parish?

Why do EMsHC dress like they are headed to a dance club or cocktail lounge?

When does the denial and excuses end? There are already options in my parish. I really wonder how many people have left the parish or the Church altogether because of how objectively poorly the Mass is celebrated at my parish, and quite a few other parishes in my deanery?

Do you want answers to these questions? Or are they rhetorical questions, just blowing off steam?
I don’t have answers, and you will likely not get answers.
That was my point.
Imperfections end in heaven. How are we going to live here and now, with other people who are imperfect?

 

[coachdennis]

Why?

With something as critically important as the Mass why do we “live” with irreverence?

Why do we have the cantor/guitarist who plays horribly and tunes his guitar during the Mass when we have plenty of other cantors and musicians?

Why hasn’t the reader been banashed once and for all who makes changes to the reading on the fly to be more appealing to sexists/feminists?

Why is a deacon allowed to proclaim the Gospel when he does it so poorly that he changes the meaning of the reading?

Why does the person in charge or altar servers not train them? Why does ferociously defend her little position at the parish?

Why do EMsHC dress like they are headed to a dance club or cocktail lounge?

When does the denial and excuses end? There are already options in my parish. I really wonder how many people have left the parish or the Church altogether because of how objectively poorly the Mass is celebrated at my parish, and quite a few other parishes in my deanery?

I don’t know the answers. I don’t have the answers.

As a previous poster asked you – are these rhetorial, or are you venting?

Look back at your questions – you are accusing the guitarist, the lector, the deacon, the EMHC, the altar servers – who is ultimately in charge in your parish? They are the only ones who can give you the answers.

On the other hand, you have a responsibility towards your own developing spirituality. If your frustration and sadness is taking away from your prayer at Mass, then you have two choices:

1. pray for the distractions to be less of a hindrance to you
2. find another place for Mass

 

[Jegudiel]

Do you want answers to these questions? Or are they rhetorical questions, just blowing off steam?
I don’t have answers, and you will likely not get answers.
That was my point.
Imperfections end in heaven. How are we going to live here and now, with other people who are imperfect?

I really want answers. This is not a matter of “imperfections.”

First, please keep in mind how stunningly important the celebration of the Mass is. It deserves our very best. If a given parish was limited on resources, that’s one thing, but my parish is not. The matters I mention continue because of pastoral apathy, excuses and denial. In other words, “politics.”

How could something as important as the Mass fall prey to politics? In reality, how could God allow this?

I can understand a lot of debate when it comes to legitimate liturgical options. But tuning a guitar during the Mass or changing the words of the reading? I am just dumbfounded by it all.

 

[Jegudiel]

I don’t know the answers. I don’t have the answers.

As a previous poster asked you – are these rhetorial, or are you venting?

Look back at your questions – you are accusing the guitarist, the lector, the deacon, the EMHC, the altar servers – who is ultimately in charge in your parish? They are the only ones who can give you the answers.

On the other hand, you have a responsibility towards your own developing spirituality. If your frustration and sadness is taking away from your prayer at Mass, then you have two choices:

1. pray for the distractions to be less of a hindrance to you
2. find another place for Mass

You’re simply offering more excuses. What you term “distractions” need to be eradicated.

Why does my parish employ a gutarist who tunes-up right before Mass and continues to tune during Mass? I know people have complained for the last few years yet it continues. We have plenty of other cantors and music ministers.

Why would someone be allowed to read who consantly changes words of the readings to make it more feminist-friendly? We have many other lectors. Why is it allowed?

Why would a deacon be allowed to proclaim the Gospel week after week in a manner that completely blunts or changes the meaning of it? All of our presiders are quite capable of reading the Gospel.

Why does my parish have virtually untrained altar servers? Why is the person in charge of training so ferocious in guarding her position rather than allowing others to take on the responsibility (more than a few have offered)?

Why do so many EMsHC dress and act as they do? Why do they loudly treat the sacristy as a lounge?

Does it come down to the effects of original sin and the work of Satan? I would really like to know. This is not a matter of personal tastes, OF vs. EF Masses, trivial concerns like vestment types, etc. etc.

My pastor has absolutely no interest into looking into any of this stuff. Why though?

 

[Julia_Mae]

My pastor has absolutely no interest into looking into any of this stuff. Why though?

Possibly because he believes if he offends these people no one will be left or step forward. possibly because he thinks it would be unkind. Or he is just tired and wishing he were somewhere else doing something else. They are just human.

I don’t disagree with you. But I think what we want is to fix something that’s been broken for at least a thousand years. However, I am going to say something I have never said before. Take all of this and put it together in a letter and send it to the Pope. I’m completely serious. Someone will read it, someone will have it sent to them. Someone will perhaps make a phone call.

It says in Canon Law that the faithful have the right to demand certain things. A simple reverant Mass has to be one of them.

 

[Jegudiel]

Possibly because he believes if he offends these people no one will be left or step forward. possibly because he thinks it would be unkind. Or he is just tired and wishing he were somewhere else doing something else. They are just human.

You’re probably right. There are plenty of people already in ministry so I don’t think that’s an issue. I do think he fears the added workload and resistance that he would encounter if he made any changes.

I don’t disagree with you. But I think what we want is to fix something that’s been broken for at least a thousand years. However, I am going to say something I have never said before. Take all of this and put it together in a letter and send it to the Pope. I’m completely serious. Someone will read it, someone will have it sent to them. Someone will perhaps make a phone call.

Thanks, I appreciate that sentiment.

It says in Canon Law that the faithful have the right to demand certain things. A simple reverant Mass has to be one of them.

True.

 

[Jegudiel]

Let me ask a parallel question.

I remember a retired priest telling me one time that when he was ordained, he took on a gravely serious responsibility and that the power bestowed upon him by God to celebrate the sacraments was far more powerful than giving a USN captain the command of a nuclear submarine. I’ve pondered that a lot over the years and there is a great deal of truth to it.

Given the unfathomably huge importance of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, why do the things I have listed still exist? “Being human” simply doesn’t cut it as an excuse when we are talking about something so important.

Do some pastors and bishops simply not give the celebration of the Mass its due respect? Is that a deliberate choice? If the Mass is indeed the representation of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to His Father for our sins, how could it ever be celebrated with anything less than a 100% effort?

Try screwing-up on a nuclear sub and blaming it on “being human” or “having a bad day.” That simply wouldn’t sell. There would be consequences along with extra training. Why isn’t the Mass treated with this level of respect?

 

[TigerKitty]

Not at my parish.

Even though I am a long time parishioner, the people in charge of things like the sacristy make it known that no one else need apply. It is a closed society. It’s a big part of the problem at my parish. They are a huge source of the problems.

Same at our current parish, and it does make me cry at times. I’ve always been involved, no matter where i’ve been. Have moved around a lot, and so the church is my home.I feel unwelcome and unwanted at our new parish…sigh. I have notfound this cliquishness anywhere else I’ve been. It really makes me sad…

 

[Jegudiel]

Same at our current parish, and it does make me cry at times. I’ve always been involved, no matter where i’ve been. Have moved around a lot, and so the church is my home.I feel unwelcome and unwanted at our new parish…sigh. I have notfound this cliquishness anywhere else I’ve been. It really makes me sad…

I feel badly for you. I have thought and prayed on this matter a great deal. In my parish it seems like the very worst people (in terms of how they treat others) do whatever it takes to hang onto their turf. They offend others and they fight amonst themselves. It really is horrible.

Over the years they have driven away MANY people from my parish that I personally know. Again I ask the question, how long will this sort of thing go on?

I suppose the answer is until we get a pastor who is a real reformer.

 

[robwar]

I was a sacristan/server/reader/EMHC at my parish for almost 10 years. It was truly horrible being associated with the laypeople in charge of those ministries. Those people are the source of many problems and brutal infighting. Because of my long tenure at the parish I was able to ignore much of the garbage but it was still a very difficult environment.

The worst part was watching someone new enter one of the ministries. Each and every one would be extremely reverent at the beginning without exception. They would either leave the ministry within 90 days (or less) or they would start treating the church (and especially the sacristy) as a clubhouse. Fewer than 10-15% stayed solemn and reverent.

Your comments about the sexist reader are nice and all but they don’t apply to my parish. That woman has been complained about for years. She’s good friends with the scheduler however and the parish (and bishop) couldn’t care less about such things when contacts. I wish it was as easy as you say to correct.

Thanks for your response and even service and again I think that you should go back to doing all of the above to be an example as well as just service to God alone. Likewise, I am not sure how long your current priest as been there but they are rotated (or suppose to be) for these kinds of reasons, entrenchment in the parish. If you focus that your time and service is for God and to be an example I would think that this would help.
Now about this lector, you do have grounds to complain because it is liturgical abuse to change the words in reading of the scripture. You are frustrated because the previous attempts to complain were not effective. First, it needs to be documented what this person does when reading and on more than one time too and it may need to be recorded as proof. You present this to the priest and/or worship director. If they won’t respond or don’t remove this person, then you have grounds and proof of their responses or lack there of to go to your diocese or Bishop. What people fail to realize and get frustrated with is that to approach a Bishop about problems such as these, you are going to have to have some hard core evidence, dates, time, what was said etc. Yes this is work but someone should not be lecturing and then changing words to fit their political views. That is liturgical abuse and a major one. Just because this person is a buddy of the scheduler mean nothing and if the priest is aware, he should have the guts to do the right thing and may need support from people like you. That is why I am suggesting to get back and involved to make the changes your parish needs. I’ve know what it is like to approach a Bishop with a complaint (not liturgical but something else) and it was done with hard core evidence, dates and time. I think you seem like a very caring and serious Catholic, someone with many years under your belt so I really want to encourage you to step forward and not be discouraged but involved even if it is hard and you will get flack. It is such a time like these we need people like you.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Our parish suffers badly from a lot of nonsense and frippery.

2 weeks ago our prmanent Deacon got busted for embezzlement.
Last week our music director and main liturgical co-ordinator got popped for drunk driving.

Last Sundays liturgy was reverent, quiet, by the book, with an outstanding homily, etc…

I honestly cannot remember the last Sunday mass like that at this parish.

Thank You God. Thank you.

I am hoping we got a wake-up call with the unpleasant events serving as the alarm clock.

 

[TimothyH]

That’s very sad in that case, period. Although I have absolutely no doubt that in the case of my parish, it’s so bad the presider could indeed direct the deacon to stand-down during the reading. This deacon does stand down when the bishop is celebrating a Mass at my parish (a priest does the reading.)

I have absolutely no idea why God would want a man to butcher the Gospel proclamation so badly that the meaning is either lost or dramatically changed? That just leaves me shaking my head.

Stuff like this makes me wonder why the proclamation of the Gospel is limited to ordained men? It’s OK for a reading to be proclaimed in such a manner that it’s completely unintelligible yet somehow it would be wrong for a layperson to proclaim it? Really? What’s the reason for that other than “the Church says so?” Anything at all? Why does the Church say so? Just more head shaking from me on that.

Anyway, I don’t want to derail this thread. I would like to know when the apathy, excuses and denial end?

A deacon is the ordinary minister of the Gospel. Part of the deacon’s threefold ministry - liturgy, word, service - is to proclaim the Gospel.

When a bishop is present, a priest will read the Gospel. This is appropriate because a priest is also a deacon. When a priest, or even a Bishop approaches the ambo to proclaim the Gospel, they do so as part of their ministry as a deacon. When a priest approaches the ambo to proclaim the gospel, he is assuming his role as an ordained deacon - a proclaimer of the Gospel - in the Church. A deacon recieves this role by virtue of his being more closly conformed to Christ in the sacrament of holy orders.

A deacon is also the minister of the altar, the one who places the roman missal and chalice set on the altar, pours the wine into the sacred vessel, adds the water to the wine, etc. A lay person should presume to take on the role of proclaiming the Gospel in the context of Mass as much as they should presume to take on the role of preparing the altar for the priest. Just because a deacon does one or even both poorly, it does not give a lay person the right to do so. That right, privilege really, has been granted to the deacon by virtue of his being more closely conformed to Christ in the sacrament of Holy Orders.

God wants the deacon, no matter how poorly he does it, to proclaim the gospel. This is entirely evident by the fact that the man was called by God to be a deacon in the first place.

Jegudiel, I have to ask in all sincerity. I want to be as respectful as I can here, but I have to ask… Is there really a banjo used at Mass in your parish?

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

Why?

With something as critically important as the Mass why do we “live” with irreverence?

I did not say to tolerate, or participate in, irreverence. This is what I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jegudiel
But my question remains. When do the liturgical apathy, excuses and denial stop?

Heaven.
That is a long way off for some of us. The question is…how do we live now, with other weak and flawed human beings?