When do you admit that you love someone?

[chevalier]

Of course.

but in this particular case, the father is not going to give me permission unless she cares for me as I care for her.

There is something interesting in that. So you say she wouldn’t let her get involved with someone she doesn’t care enough about?

This young woman is really making the decision to care for or love me. The father is just deciding when the relationship is ready to take place.

Considering she’s adult, that’s external interference which does not belong to the nature of a relationship of two people. The mitigating factor is that she’s young, lives with her parents and prefers to heed their decisions for some time more. But I’m worried by parents trying to allow or disallow relationships. They can allow or not allow contact, even restrict communication or something, but they can’t allow or forbid feelings or bonds. That is a kind of authority that no human has over another.

Strange still, I know. But I’m hoping to convince him that its ready, and that waiting is pointless and perhaps unhealthy for the relationship and the couple involved.

Not sure about it being so pointless or unhealthy to wait with making declarations especially in front of family and perhaps other people. However, I’ve always been against the way he has restricted your communication. I find his regime rather controlling.

 

[Belgarion]

Well, it is one.

great!!

There’s no reason to get into a relationship if one isn’t in love. If one falls in love when already within a relationship, then something was too hasty, but luckily it turned out well.
Please note that falling in love when already in a relationship and falling in love with a friend are not the only two possibilities. You can fall in love during the phase in which you get to know someone whom you could hardly call a trusted and tested friend.

I guess you’re right. I was just listing the ones I thought of first.
But I’m glad that falling in love BEFORE the relationship isn’t reckless…Being extremely cautious, I was afraid that it might be.

That’s debatable.

Yeah, well I know its not easy to see everything when you’re only hearing about this from me. I wish some of my friends would post here. LOL

That’s what I’m talking about. Don’t I make a fine interrogator?
But it’s good you want to do something. Hasty action is bad, but inaction isn’t great either. So, ready to look the father in the eye?

LOL! too good!

Yeah, I’m definitely ready now. I’ve put alot of thought and prayer into this.

Let’s return to the beginning. I can see that it has moved your entire being. I still ask if all those things convinced you.
Hint: Sometimes we fill the gaps.

Yes, they convinced me. Not only have my reasons convinced me, but the reasons others give me as well. They never let me forget things.

Nope, she doesn’t. The point is that no matter how hard you tell yourself something, it won’t really give you true conviction. The latter only comes in a natural way. So, would you say that you aren’t filling any gaps?

Filling gaps? you mean like seeing something and misunderstanding its meaning? Or convincing myself with my feelings when logic can’t support it?

I can say with certainty “no”

I believe I have true conviction here. True dedication.
Gosh, I am told frequently that this was MY choice. I can go out with other girls if I want. If I’m depressed because I can’t see this girl, I can always go somewhere on a real date with another girl.

I flat-out refuse. My feelings for this young woman prevent me from accepting such an absurd idea.

I read you. Now that’s something interesting.

Isn’t it?

I see. So you concentrate more on both of you admitting the feelings (presuming she has some) to each other than on publically laying a claim.

Pretty much. I know that if we knew how much we cared for one another, I wouldn’t have to worry about it being official or not. Of course, at that point it WOULD become official…But all that really matters to me is getting to know her on that honest level so we can both discern our vocation together. To see if we are truly meant to be together.

Nah, let’s not overestimate it. Her father can’t forbide you to talk to her and he can’t prevent you from standing for her. He can only limit your ability to take care of her by physically being there, or restrict your communication. But he can’t fully prevent the bond you talk about and certainly not the feelings which lead to it.

Sure, he can’t ACTUALLY restrict me from anything. If she and I wanted to, we could bypass him entirelly.
But why would we?
She has a good relationship with her family. I can’t just think of ME here. I don’t want to ruin her relationship with them. I have to do what’s best for HER before I do what’s best for me.
example:
If I go to her dad and explain everything and he says “NO”. I will go to her. The worst he can do is try to tear us apart. That might not really work. It just depends on what she believes is right. HOWEVER, I may not support that idea of her leaving her family to be with me. That wouldn’t be very helpful to her.
If leaving her family is what’s best for her, then yes I’ll support it. But if it isn’t…then I’ll insist that she stay. I suppose it just depends.

Be careful. As much as you may have everything planned, as you may be convinced and fully certain, there are still other factors. There’s she, there’s her father. There’s always God’s will able to change any human plans. Much may happen yet.

True. Very true.
I can only do so much though. I will do what I can, and if it doesn’t work, then I have to move on.
However, I’m confident that in the end it WILL work. I just hope that it can be done without any conflict, but instead with compromise.

I’m a lawyer not a lover.

you can’t be both?!?

 

[Belgarion]

There is something interesting in that. So you say he wouldn’t let her get involved with someone she doesn’t care enough about?

Yes. He told me that. He told me that he would have immediately told me"NO" (when I asked him in the first place) if she didn’t care for me. (now, whether he meant as “If she didn’t have feelings for you”, or as “if she found you repulsive” I don’t know…)

Considering she’s adult, that’s external interference which does not belong to the nature of a relationship of two people. The mitigating factor is that she’s young, lives with her parents and prefers to heed their decisions for some time more. But I’m worried by parents trying to allow or disallow relationships. They can allow or not allow contact, even restrict communication or something, but they can’t allow or forbid feelings or bonds. That is a kind of authority that no human has over another.

I think they may realize that. Her father said that if it were meant to be, he couldn’t stop it.
So I think he’s saying he can (and WILL) try to stop it, but he won’t be able to if we’re dedicated enough.

Not sure about it being so pointless or unhealthy to wait with making declarations especially in front of family and perhaps other people. However, I’ve always been against the way he has restricted your communication. I find his regime rather controlling.

Well, a couple of things I want to point out.

1. I read courtship books. They’ll say that a “friendship dating period” is good. A good length of time for it would be around 3 months. You do things as friends. There’s less pressure etc etc.
   Once that three months is over, and you are still interested, its important to move forward or perhaps it might seem like you aren’t interested enough. (there are other factors here, too. Like if I’m dedicated to this woman, and let’s say I wait and wait for her, but then when I finally court her, she turns out to be different…I would have wasted all that time. Relationships end in either marriage or break-ups. I’d rather find out sooner than later since I’d be stealing away from my One True Love. Or I’d be distracting myself from important matters over nothing!)
2. Her father isn’t a bad guy! I was his friend before I was hers!
   They just have REALLY ineffective courtship rules and they refuse to compromise them. (or so I hear) I just need to talk to him. That’s the first step I need to take.

 

[chevalier]

But I’m glad that falling in love BEFORE the relationship isn’t reckless…Being extremely cautious, I was afraid that it might be.

No. Reckless is starting a relationship without being in love. Reckless or desperate, barring marriage of convenience if one has a cause to marry without the romantic feeling (think royals making alliances or widowers looking for a parent for their children, or others protecting a family from extinction).

Yeah, well I know its not easy to see everything when you’re only hearing about this from me. I wish some of my friends would post here. LOL

You wouldn’t do that to them, would you?

LOL! too good!

People hate me for that.

Yes, they convinced me. Not only have my reasons convinced me, but the reasons others give me as well. They never let me forget things.

Hmm… Well. Do your feelings correspond with your conviction?

Filling gaps? you mean like seeing something and misunderstanding its meaning? Or convincing myself with my feelings when logic can’t support it?

Neither feelings, nor logic. Just wishful thinking or a self-inspired fervour. Imagine a person whose potential mates are running out, someone lonely who finds good company. You are probably familiar with misinterpration of the other’s signals, leading you to believe in more interest than the person really has in you. One could do the same to his own interest, exaggerating it, keeping it up by the power of one’s will, until after some time it drops in strength and the hype is gone. I do not think you go that far, but are you sure you aren’t making yourself so convinced and decided?

Pretty much. I know that if we knew how much we cared for one another, I wouldn’t have to worry about it being official or not. Of course, at that point it WOULD become official…

Not necessarily, actually, but let’s go on…

She has a good relationship with her family. I can’t just think of ME here. I don’t want to ruin her relationship with them. I have to do what’s best for HER before I do what’s best for me.

Good point. On the other hand, giving in to unreasonable demands with poor authority behind, is a different matter from merely making some concessions for the sake of peace. For example, I would die single before asking a father’s permission in a way casting doubt on the process of consent, whereas I might well do that out of respect I felt.

If leaving her family is what’s best for her, then yes I’ll support it. But if it isn’t…then I’ll insist that she stay. I suppose it just depends.

Oh, come on. A 19 year old young woman will not leave her family to start a new one with a young man her age. People don’t normally cut ties with family over such things at such a young age, nor really should they, I think.

I think they may realize that. Her father said that if it were meant to be, he couldn’t stop it.
So I think he’s saying he can (and WILL) try to stop it, but he won’t be able to if we’re dedicated enough.

He and I do seem to have something in common…

1. I read courtship books. They’ll say that a “friendship dating period” is good. A good length of time for it would be around 3 months. You do things as friends. There’s less pressure etc etc.
   Once that three months is over, and you are still interested, its important to move forward or perhaps it might seem like you aren’t interested enough. (there are other factors here, too. Like if I’m dedicated to this woman, and let’s say I wait and wait for her, but then when I finally court her, she turns out to be different…I would have wasted all that time. Relationships end in either marriage or break-ups. I’d rather find out sooner than later since I’d be stealing away from my One True Love. Or I’d be distracting myself from important matters over nothing!)

Those books have many fundamental flaws. They are often written by social conservatives and some of them can’t properly distinguish between a societal rule and a moral one. Those “three months” rules, or any other rules setting a specific amount of time, are basically rules of thumb. They aren’t made my psychologists or moral philosophers, but by people guided by their sense of propriety.
“Friendship dating” is either a spark of genius or a contradictio in terminis. This depends on the author’s definition of dating. If dating includes advanced romantic gesture (I’d be hesitant about brief touches on the arm, cheek pecks and similar affectionate things which even simple friends do, but I’m rather certain about kissing on the lips, sitting in someone’s lap, embracing or writing love letters), then it is more than friendship and it should also be an exclusive relationship. However, if one keeps those themes light, most of the confines of friendship could remain. It is also a different matter if that “friendship dating” involves spending time together and even deep conversations, but it doesn’t cross the line of friendship as far as displays of affection are concerned.
Lastly, One True Love is hardly a theologically substantiated concept and there’s little in empirical science to support it. The one part of it is wishful thinking of lovers or romanticised musings of poets and the other are people reluctant to let go of their past interests. This doesn’t preclude that God might actually set two people in each other’s path.

They just have REALLY ineffective courtship rules and they refuse to compromise them. (or so I hear) I just need to talk to him. That’s the first step I need to take.

They or he?

 

[kage_ar]

“One true love” is something made up by novelists, poets and fertilized by Hollywood. Don’t buy that lie.

 

[Belgarion]

chevalier:

No. Reckless is starting a relationship without being in love. Reckless or desperate, barring marriage of convenience if one has a cause to marry without the romantic feeling (think royals making alliances or widowers looking for a parent for their children, or others protecting a family from extinction).

OK, I see

You wouldn’t do that to them, would you?

…Well…
I’m sure they’d be fine.

Hmm… Well. Do your feelings correspond with your conviction?

Yep.

Neither feelings, nor logic. Just wishful thinking or a self-inspired fervour. Imagine a person whose potential mates are running out, someone lonely who finds good company. You are probably familiar with misinterpration of the other’s signals, leading you to believe in more interest than the person really has in you. One could do the same to his own interest, exaggerating it, keeping it up by the power of one’s will, until after some time it drops in strength and the hype is gone. I do not think you go that far, but are you sure you aren’t making yourself so convinced and decided?

hmm…I understand what you mean…I don’t think I do that. I think that my feelings stay strong. I don’t really misinterpret things…Because I don’t assume things! not anymore at least! I always doubt that something means what it means. My married friends are usually the ones that convince me that I shouldn’t doubt because there’s definitely something there.

However, I’m sure there’s still a danger. That’s why courting is so important at this point. I need to see if my love is true or not.

Good point. On the other hand, giving in to unreasonable demands with poor authority behind, is a different matter from merely making some concessions for the sake of peace. For example, I would die single before asking a father’s permission in a way casting doubt on the process of consent, whereas I might well do that out of respect I felt.

I respect her father AND her. Any actions I’d take would simply be for her happiness and out of respect for him. If the two clash, then her happiness takes precedence.

Oh, come on. A 19 year old young woman will not leave her family to start a new one with a young man her age. People don’t normally cut ties with family over such things at such a young age, nor really should they, I think.

I hope she won’t have to!
After all, I’m not asking to marry her right now. This is why their courtship rules are so bogus! I know of one (at least) of the kids that had to move out because the family wasn’t letting him and his girlfriend do anything together! And now they’re married!
But yes, I don’t think she will leave either. Its still a delicate situation though and I NEED to resolve it.

Those books have many fundamental flaws. They are often written by social conservatives and some of them can’t properly distinguish between a societal rule and a moral one. Those “three months” rules, or any other rules setting a specific amount of time, are basically rules of thumb. They aren’t made my psychologists or moral philosophers, but by people guided by their sense of propriety.
“Friendship dating” is either a spark of genius or a contradictio in terminis. This depends on the author’s definition of dating. If dating includes advanced romantic gesture (I’d be hesitant about brief touches on the arm, cheek pecks and similar affectionate things which even simple friends do, but I’m rather certain about kissing on the lips, sitting in someone’s lap, embracing or writing love letters), then it is more than friendship and it should also be an exclusive relationship. However, if one keeps those themes light, most of the confines of friendship could remain. It is also a different matter if that “friendship dating” involves spending time together and even deep conversations, but it doesn’t cross the line of friendship as far as displays of affection are concerned.
Lastly, One True Love is hardly a theologically substantiated concept and there’s little in empirical science to support it. The one part of it is wishful thinking of lovers or romanticised musings of poets and the other are people reluctant to let go of their past interests. This doesn’t preclude that God might actually set two people in each other’s path

as I said below, its hardly logical to think He doesn’t guide us to our future spouse.

anyways, these books are Catholic books. One of them (Christian Courtship in an over-sexed world byT.G. Morrow) is written by a priest! This book was the one that gave the recommendation of 2 year courtship after a 3 month friendship dating period. Does the fact that it was written by a priest make it infallible? No. But does it make it more convincing? yes.

The other book I believe is The ABC’s of chooseing a good wife by Stephen Wood. Also a great book that suggests that there be semi-private time in courtship. That is, the family sets aside an area in (or right outside of) the home so that the couple can converse without the danger of sexual temptation. This particular suggestion is rather important to me since according to this family, the couple aren’t to be alone at all! Even talking to the girl now, I can’t be left outside with her unless her siblings are with us

They or he?

hmm…Mostly him, but it includes his wife as well. The children (as far as I know) don’t agree with the rules. Everyone else I know disagrees as well, stating that they are not effective and hardly tolerable.

 

[Belgarion]

“One true love” is something made up by novelists, poets and fertilized by Hollywood. Don’t buy that lie.

So, you don’t believe that God brings couples together? You don’t think He gives everyone that has a vocation to marriage someone to wed? You think that there is plan set up by Him for our romantic lives?

Why?
To think that God doesn’t guide us to our future spouse is ridiculous.
True Love is not a lie, nor is it an idea limited to poets and Hollywood.

 

[kage_ar]

So, you don’t believe that God brings couples together? You don’t think He gives everyone that has a vocation to marriage someone to wed? You think that there is plan set up by Him for our romantic lives?

Why?
To think that God doesn’t guide us to our future spouse is ridiculous.
True Love is not a lie, nor is it an idea limited to poets and Hollywood.

Vocation to marry and one true love soul mate are NOT the same thing

Every person has a vocation, and it is up to us to prayerfully find that vocation.

That does not mean that God has one other human being, somewhere on the face of the earth who is destined to be your spouse, and if you do not marry them you have lost your chance at one true love. That would negate free will, and we as Christians know God created us with free will. The Church has never taught that God predestins us to marry one person.

We should pray that God will have His way, while at the same time keeping our eyes open for people of like Faith and like ideal. Any one of those people could be a good and holy spouse.

It does sound as if the young woman you are speaking of would do well to get some time on her own, making her own decisions, being a person standing on her two feet - maybe in college or the work world, before she think about marrage. If her family is as controlling as you describe, she will have alot of growing up to do before she could freely consent to marriage.

 

[chevalier]

…Well…
I’m sure they’d be fine.

If they are like you, they might be able to survive that.

Yep.

Good answer.

hmm…I understand what you mean…I don’t think I do that. I think that my feelings stay strong. I don’t really misinterpret things…Because I don’t assume things! not anymore at least! I always doubt that something means what it means. My married friends are usually the ones that convince me that I shouldn’t doubt because there’s definitely something there.

Doubts are sometimes a sign of a weak mind. Harbouring doubts is like a disease.

However, I’m sure there’s still a danger. That’s why courting is so important at this point. I need to see if my love is true or not.

We will deal with this later.

I respect her father AND her. Any actions I’d take would simply be for her happiness and out of respect for him. If the two clash, then her happiness takes precedence.

Yes. But do you know better than she (or even he) what’s good for her happiness? Are you entitled to make the choice for her and push her into it? Many different outcomes will be possible.

After all, I’m not asking to marry her right now. This is why their courtship rules are so bogus! I know of one (at least) of the kids that had to move out because the family wasn’t letting him and his girlfriend do anything together! And now they’re married!

Okay. You are able to see it.

But yes, I don’t think she will leave either. Its still a delicate situation though and I NEED to resolve it.

She too. The deal is not between you and the father.

as I said below, its hardly logical to think He doesn’t guide us to our future spouse.

Since He cares for us all. But it’s hard for me to believe in the idea that He selects our spouses, at least in each and every case, as much as I might be attracted to it on an emotional level. My prayers are conditional. If He has one in mind for me (and me for her), if not then a good one.

anyways, these books are Catholic books. One of them (Christian Courtship in an over-sexed world byT.G. Morrow) is written by a priest! This book was the one that gave the recommendation of 2 year courtship after a 3 month friendship dating period. Does the fact that it was written by a priest make it infallible? No. But does it make it more convincing? yes.

Any numbers are suspicious since they suggest arbitrariness. Two years is a reasonable time. Long enough to survive the withdrawal of the initial hormonal attraction and whatever such infatuation might there be, short enough to avoid pointless prolongation. And yet I do not believe in any numbers regulating our life in a fixed schedule (as much as it is useful for self-work and self-discipline).

The other book I believe is The ABC’s of chooseing a good wife by Stephen Wood. Also a great book that suggests that there be semi-private time in courtship. That is, the family sets aside an area in (or right outside of) the home so that the couple can converse without the danger of sexual temptation. This particular suggestion is rather important to me since according to this family, the couple aren’t to be alone at all! Even talking to the girl now, I can’t be left outside with her unless her siblings are with us

The presence of others is a good deterrent to even entertaining sexual thoughts, granted, but the lack of ability to exchange words without being heard is not in line with human dignity. She doesn’t wear a burkha and she does not need a mahram hearing her every word.

hmm…Mostly him, but it includes his wife as well. The children (as far as I know) don’t agree with the rules. Everyone else I know disagrees as well, stating that they are not effective and hardly tolerable.

What about her? You say the children don’t agree with his rules, but you have also said that she does, or at least that she agreed for him to make them. There is a bit of contradiction here.

 

[Belgarion]

Vocation to marry and one true love soul mate are NOT the same thing

Every person has a vocation, and it is up to us to prayerfully find that vocation.

That does not mean that God has one other human being, somewhere on the face of the earth who is destined to be your spouse, and if you do not marry them you have lost your chance at one true love. That would negate free will, and we as Christians know God created us with free will. The Church has never taught that God predestins us to marry one person.

We should pray that God will have His way, while at the same time keeping our eyes open for people of like Faith and like ideal. Any one of those people could be a good and holy spouse.

Free will has nothing to do with it.

Let’s say that I know my best friend better than anyone else. And I meet this girl that I know will be perfect for him, I will set them up, right?

Same thing, except God knows you better than ANYONE. And so He’ll guide you to the one that He knows is right for you. Sure, you can veer off course and either end up just as happy or perhaps not as happy as you could have been. But ultimately its about listening to God and understanding His vocation for you.
There IS such a thing as true love.
You could never convince me otherwise.

It does sound as if the young woman you are speaking of would do well to get some time on her own, making her own decisions, being a person standing on her two feet - maybe in college or the work world, before she think about marrage. If her family is as controlling as you describe, she will have alot of growing up to do before she could freely consent to marriage.

Consenting to marriage is a rather big deal. Whether she needs to leave before she can consent or not is debateable though. This is simple courtship that I’m working towards now. She’s not completely dependant on her family, I’ve seen her make her own decisions and she actually DOES work.

She has some growing, yes. Her older brother did some growing after he got into a relationship, too. Because of the influence of his now-bride.

To know all the factors for certain, there has to be a period of courtship.
But that doesn’t change who she is. I still love her. Whether she has growing to do or not.

 

[Belgarion]

If they are like you, they might be able to survive that.

Perhaps!

Good answer.

Whew, that’s what I like to hear!

Doubts are sometimes a sign of a weak mind. Harbouring doubts is like a disease.

Hey! I’m not weak minded

Yes, you are
waves hand

…Yes I am…

LOL, not really. I’m just cautious. I’ve misinterpreted things before and I don’t want to do it again because it leads to heartache.

We will deal with this later.

Yes. But do you know better than she (or even he) what’s good for her happiness? Are you entitled to make the choice for her and push her into it? Many different outcomes will be possible.

Ah, good point.
But that’s why I have to be so cautious about it.
However, according to you, her father isn’t doing what’s best for her. And if she gets upset and is in an emotional state, she wouldn’t be level-headed. Who’s going to convince her to make the best choice?
I may not be perfect, but I’d be up for the job. My sister’s husband did the same for my sister before they were married. She wanted to leave, but he saw that that wasn’t the best thing to do. He was right. Was he qualified to make that judgment? No…But he made the right choice.

She too. The deal is not between you and the father.

No, not just me and her father. But she’s not going to give me problem, isn’t she? I don’t believe so. But he will.

Since He cares for us all. But it’s hard for me to believe in the idea that He selects our spouses, at least in each and every case, as much as I might be attracted to it on an emotional level. My prayers are conditional. If He has one in mind for me (and me for her), if not then a good one.

I think I answered this in the above post…But you can tell me if I didn’t do so adequately

Any numbers are suspicious since they suggest arbitrariness. Two years is a reasonable time. Long enough to survive the withdrawal of the initial hormonal attraction and whatever such infatuation might there be, short enough to avoid pointless prolongation. And yet I do not believe in any numbers regulating our life in a fixed schedule (as much as it is useful for self-work and self-discipline).

Well, he was just giving a good time frame. He’s not saying you should schedule your wedding on the day that you’ve been together for exactly two years.

The presence of others is a good deterrent to even entertaining sexual thoughts, granted, but the lack of ability to exchange words without being heard is not in line with human dignity. She doesn’t wear a burkha and she does not need a mahram hearing her every word.

yeah, that’s why I’m going to fight for that. Its critical to the relationship, if only because I have trouble talking about my feelings in front of an audience…lol…The woman, fine. Her whole family…eh…not really.

What about her? You say the children don’t agree with his rules, but you have also said that she does, or at least that she agreed for him to make them. There is a bit of contradiction here.

Ah, yes.

I mean the actual rules within the courtship. THOSE aren’t agreeable.
The acceptance of the courtship however was put into her father’s hands. By her, according to him.
But I really have never talked to her about courting…that’s a rather awkward topic when you’re talking in front of the family…
And when we’re alone (semi-alone really. there are people around and we’re checked up on occasionally) we talk about other stuff. I guess I should talk about that soon…before or after I talk to her dad? Not sure, but I’ll just wing it.

 

[chevalier]

Same thing, except God knows you better than ANYONE. And so He’ll guide you to the one that He knows is right for you. Sure, you can veer off course and either end up just as happy or perhaps not as happy as you could have been. But ultimately its about listening to God and understanding His vocation for you.

God can do that and He cares enough for each of us to do that. And yet, as much as we may pray for guidance in this choice, which might result in our being led to a specific person, and as much as this might well “happen” before our births since God knows what we will ask for before we are born, I still don’t see enough reason to justify a conviction that people are somehow pre-matched before they are born.

Same thing, except God knows you better than ANYONE. And so He’ll guide you to the one that He knows is right for you. Sure, you can veer off course and either end up just as happy or perhaps not as happy as you could have been. But ultimately its about listening to God and understanding His vocation for you.

If you end up just as happy if you make a different choice, then was the original choice better than the eventual one? And since the original choice was supposedly made by God, how could one be just as happy not following it? This of course not prejudicing that any valid marriage of two baptised persons is a sacrament and that God might bless us with happiness even if we make a bad choice.

 

[chevalier]

LOL, not really. I’m just cautious. I’ve misinterpreted things before and I don’t want to do it again because it leads to heartache.

I’ve done that so many times. Mostly seeing what I’ve wanted to see, but not always. People have the right to some privacy, we shouldn’t interpret them too much.

No worries, nothing too ominous. A discussion of true love has just started anyway. One and only, only in a lifetimes, these are tense points. However, early Christians did praise sticking with one partner even after his death, out of respect and a sense of community with him. This is something I would generally prefer. I’m not so receptive of the idea of preselected partners. An argument that we wouldn’t be significant enough obviously doesn’t work. Each of us matters a lot to Him. A “why should he” argument is wrong as well, since God cares infinitely. And yet still, one in the whole earth, choice made by God? I am not denying it, but I cannot affirm it either. I wish it were true, but I don’t think it necessarily is.

Also point stands that if we marry the wrong person, we need to stick by it so long as the marriage is valid. Something would have to happen with the person we were supposed to marry originally. One couldn’t really remain called to marry that person while already in a marriage with another, barring invalid marriage or if one’s spouse dies.

But that’s why I have to be so cautious about it.
However, according to you, her father isn’t doing what’s best for her.

I’m not sure. The result might be good. The method seems extreme, although I wouldn’t call it wrong on its own. I’m concerned with freedom and dignity here. However, all this is better than a hasty and ultimately unhappy marriage, or say, becoming sexually active.

And if she gets upset and is in an emotional state, she wouldn’t be level-headed. Who’s going to convince her to make the best choice?

Adult people still make the choice to marry and marriages are not suddenly void because people were in love and unable to be level-headed. Well, unless we talk about lack of maturity.

No, not just me and her father. But she’s not going to give me problem, isn’t she? I don’t believe so. But he will.

The point is you’re dealing with her father but you don’t know what she thinks.

Well, he was just giving a good time frame. He’s not saying you should schedule your wedding on the day that you’ve been together for exactly two years.

Well, as I said, the timeframe looks reasonable. It’s just it’s not a moral rule, much less a religious tenet.

yeah, that’s why I’m going to fight for that. Its critical to the relationship, if only because I have trouble talking about my feelings in front of an audience…lol…The woman, fine. Her whole family…eh…not really.

Indeed. On the other hand, you are young, as is she, neither of you is already prepared to move on your own, people normally marry at a later age than you are these days and people your age, these days, tend to make bad choices. Can’t really blame them for being careful, though they are rather extreme. Much is at stake, certainly, but privacy is important. At least the ability not to be heard.

I mean the actual rules within the courtship. THOSE aren’t agreeable.
The acceptance of the courtship however was put into her father’s hands. By her, according to him.

Strange stuff. But if they are a traditional family and it works for them, who am I to tell them? In Polish, we call that, “stepping into someone’s life with dirty shoes.” Suppose you have to live with it if that is their custom and you care for the girl. And yet, I have numerous issues with the regime.

But I really have never talked to her about courting…that’s a rather awkward topic when you’re talking in front of the family…
And when we’re alone (semi-alone really. there are people around and we’re checked up on occasionally) we talk about other stuff. I guess I should talk about that soon…before or after I talk to her dad? Not sure, but I’ll just wing it.

You can ask him if she’s receptive. I’m sure he means well, anyway. He wouldn’t torment you. He doesn’t sound like a heartless person, either. Well, I have a hypothesis, but I might be wrong.

 

[Belgarion]

God can do that and He cares enough for each of us to do that. And yet, as much as we may pray for guidance in this choice, which might result in our being led to a specific person, and as much as this might well “happen” before our births since God knows what we will ask for before we are born, I still don’t see enough reason to justify a conviction that people are somehow pre-matched before they are born.

God exists out of time and space. He just does it, the timing doesn’t matter.

If you end up just as happy if you make a different choice, then was the original choice better than the eventual one? And since the original choice was supposedly made by God, how could one be just as happy not following it? This of course not prejudicing that any valid marriage of two baptised persons is a sacrament and that God might bless us with happiness even if we make a bad choice.

I suppose then I’m mistaken. You won’t be as happy if you don’t follow God’s plan
That goes for everything, not just marriage.

 

[Belgarion]

I’ve done that so many times. Mostly seeing what I’ve wanted to see, but not always. People have the right to some privacy, we shouldn’t interpret them too much.

I guess that’s understandable. Just because we probably COULD read them like books if we wanted to, doesn’t mean we should.
where’s the fun in that anyway?

No worries, nothing too ominous. A discussion of true love has just started anyway. One and only, only in a lifetimes, these are tense points. However, early Christians did praise sticking with one partner even after his death, out of respect and a sense of community with him. This is something I would generally prefer. I’m not so receptive of the idea of preselected partners. An argument that we wouldn’t be significant enough obviously doesn’t work. Each of us matters a lot to Him. A “why should he” argument is wrong as well, since God cares infinitely. And yet still, one in the whole earth, choice made by God? I am not denying it, but I cannot affirm it either. I wish it were true, but I don’t think it necessarily is.

Well, I haven’t seen an official Church teaching on it. But if you look at some of the crazy things that happen that eventually lead to marriage…wow…

MY mom and dad met at a club that BOTH of them weren’t even going to go to! MY father was convinced by his dorky friends and my mom was dragged there as well. In fact, SHE was supposed to be on her way back to Gonzaga, but the snow prevented her.

If those two things had been different, I wouldn’t be here.
Coincidence? maybe…But God isn’t just a bystander.

Also point stands that if we marry the wrong person, we need to stick by it so long as the marriage is valid. Something would have to happen with the person we were supposed to marry originally. One couldn’t really remain called to marry that person while already in a marriage with another, barring invalid marriage or if one’s spouse dies.

Of course, that goes without saying.

I’m not sure. The result might be good. The method seems extreme, although I wouldn’t call it wrong on its own. I’m concerned with freedom and dignity here. However, all this is better than a hasty and ultimately unhappy marriage, or say, becoming sexually active.

You make sense yet again. However he has to learn to trust a bit more than he does. I’m not asking to take her away on dates by ourselves so we could be given the chance to steam up the car windows. I’m asking to be able to converse alone with her at her own house.
Perhaps even my own while my parents are there! That’s another thing, her family’s rules won’t even allow her to come over here if we were courting.

Adult people still make the choice to marry and marriages are not suddenly void because people were in love and unable to be level-headed. Well, unless we talk about lack of maturity.

Well, I’m more talking about making a rash decision like moving out because she’s upset with her parents. My sister had the same issue, luckily my BIL talked her out of it.

The point is you’re dealing with her father but you don’t know what she thinks.

Yes, and I won’t be able to ask her until I deal with her father. well, of course I will be ABLE to. But it wouldn’t be prudent to do so without telling him because he might then make things difficult for us.
Its important for me to maintain the respect he has for me, AND the relationship she has with her family. With even one of those disturbed, it could be problematic. Of course that doesn’t HAVE to effect things…But its ideal not to screw that up.

AAH!! You’re forcing me to give every little detail! Because I know you’ll bring it up if I don’t!! LOL

I have to break this post in two…

 

[Belgarion]

continued

Well, as I said, the timeframe looks reasonable. It’s just it’s not a moral rule, much less a religious tenet.

I see. I was more inclined toward three years, though.

Indeed. On the other hand, you are young, as is she, neither of you is already prepared to move on your own, people normally marry at a later age than you are these days and people your age, these days, tend to make bad choices. Can’t really blame them for being careful, though they are rather extreme. Much is at stake, certainly, but privacy is important. At least the ability not to be heard.

I think its just being HEARD as you said, rather than just talking about a conversation we had. If we talk, then he wants to know EVERYTHING we talked about (this being worst case scenario, I’m not sure if he’d actually do that) then I’m fine with that! AS long as I’m not telling HER how I feel in front of everyone, its OK if they just HEAR about what I said.

I don’t follow any trend in the world really. If people are getting married at a later age…then whatever. My sister got married at 20 and she’s living happily with her husband and she’s pregnant with their second child. At 23!

I’m not asking to be married within a year…But is it wrong to ask to start the courtship now, work towards marriage (both in the relationship and in the workforce) and be ready to get married at around 22? 23? That doesn’t sound bad by anyone standards. IN fact, that’s the ideal age range for T.G. Morrow, I believe…or was it Stephen Wood…crud…I keep blending the books in my head. Oh well.

However, you can’t say I’m not ready to move out on my own now. I work and I can work pretty darn hard. Sure, I wouldn’t have cable, internet, or time to play games. But I’d be able to support myself and work to support myself and save to support a family.

However, the reason why I don’t do that is because I help out my parents, who are in turn paying for ALL of my college. That means I’d graduate debt-free. (assuming I don’t get a credit card, which I won’t)
This is essentially my job. I don’t understand why people fail to see that.

Strange stuff. But if they are a traditional family and it works for them, who am I to tell them? In Polish, we call that, “stepping into someone’s life with dirty shoes.” Suppose you have to live with it if that is their custom and you care for the girl. And yet, I have numerous issues with the regime.

I have some issues, too. But if it works out, then I’d be spending a lifetime with her. What’s a little bit of frustration before then?

However, some key issues HAVE to be changed. Otherwise it can’t work
Those have to do with the development of the relationship, rather than silly “she can’t come over to me house” rules.

You can ask him if she’s receptive. I’m sure he means well, anyway. He wouldn’t torment you. He doesn’t sound like a heartless person, either. Well, I have a hypothesis, but I might be wrong.

LOL
A hypothesis? I don’t suppose I could hear it?

WEll, I talked to him briefly today. He said we’d chat soon. It was pretty nice and I didn’t feel nervous at all. So hopefully its coming together nicely.

 

[chevalier]

God exists out of time and space. He just does it, the timing doesn’t matter.

Yes, but that still doesn’t say He pre-matches us with specific persons.

I suppose then I’m mistaken. You won’t be as happy if you don’t follow God’s plan
That goes for everything, not just marriage.

There’s always God’s mercy. Besides this, yes, won’t be as happy, I suppose.

 

[chevalier]

I guess that’s understandable. Just because we probably COULD read them like books if we wanted to, doesn’t mean we should.
where’s the fun in that anyway?

Hehe. The other problem is the many factors in it. We can’t predict all of them or deduct them from what we see. Body language can be misleading, as can be overtones in someone’s voice. Heh, even the lie detector is occasionally fooled.

Well, I haven’t seen an official Church teaching on it. But if you look at some of the crazy things that happen that eventually lead to marriage…wow…

Yes, I’ve seen some. Dare not say those are all accidents or that they weren’t planned before we were born. On the other hand, while God knows whom we will marry, I can’t find enough grounds to believe the specific person is pre-planned.

MY mom and dad met at a club that BOTH of them weren’t even going to go to! MY father was convinced by his dorky friends and my mom was dragged there as well. In fact, SHE was supposed to be on her way back to Gonzaga, but the snow prevented her.

Yes, such stories are amazing, but there are also some that don’t end in anything permanent. Let me give you an example from my life:

A girl came into the university hall near the end of my first year. Out of all people she approached me to ask about the lecture that was just starting or about to start. It turned out she had already heard it, but regardless, I invited her to stay. She politely declined and went away. Didn’t even reach the door. Came back and sat with me and we talked all the lecture away. Minutes after, I was noting down her e-mail and phone number and minutes after that, I was kissing her hand in front of her mother - it was too early to kiss her on the cheek like with a friend or older acquaintance and I don’t shake hands with women as a rule. The second time I ever saw her, she gave me her cheek to kiss and we started seeing each other every week. We would play chess in cafes and exchange rather warm e-mails, in which she quickly began to diminute my name. I was enchanted by her perfect use of the local language even though she was a resident foreigner. In the end she told me she was just treating me like another girl. A bit later I realised that well, all in all, she wasn’t for me.

I could come up with more, but let’s not talk about me. Probably everyone who has had a couple of relationships can share stories of being misguided and thinking he or she was the one.

If those two things had been different, I wouldn’t be here.
Coincidence? maybe…But God isn’t just a bystander.

Agreed. Who knows, maybe even failed relationships have happened for a reason for some people.

You make sense yet again. However he has to learn to trust a bit more than he does. I’m not asking to take her away on dates by ourselves so we could be given the chance to steam up the car windows. I’m asking to be able to converse alone with her at her own house.

Perhaps even my own while my parents are there! That’s another thing, her family’s rules won’t even allow her to come over here if we were courting.

Rules yet again. I wonder if it’s about control (control as in not giving any opportunity for things to go wrong, not as in a big brother kind of thing), or perhaps something else. But I don’t think he would think that going to your house would give her a bad reputation?

Yes, and I won’t be able to ask her until I deal with her father. well, of course I will be ABLE to. But it wouldn’t be prudent to do so without telling him because he might then make things difficult for us.

Agreed.

AAH!! You’re forcing me to give every little detail! Because I know you’ll bring it up if I don’t!! LOL

Hehe.

I see. I was more inclined toward three years, though.

Mine is more like two. But it depends on many factors in a practical case.

I think its just being HEARD as you said, rather than just talking about a conversation we had. If we talk, then he wants to know EVERYTHING we talked about (this being worst case scenario, I’m not sure if he’d actually do that) then I’m fine with that! AS long as I’m not telling HER how I feel in front of everyone, its OK if they just HEAR about what I said.

I think secrets are a bad thing in romance, actually. It’s probably better to stay in the open. Less incentive to do wrong things, as well.

 

[chevalier]

Part two.

I’m not asking to be married within a year…But is it wrong to ask to start the courtship now, work towards marriage (both in the relationship and in the workforce) and be ready to get married at around 22? 23? That doesn’t sound bad by anyone standards. IN fact, that’s the ideal age range for T.G. Morrow, I believe…or was it Stephen Wood…crud…I keep blending the books in my head. Oh well.

That would be very happy, I guess. Especially in the later years when you will look back at it. Growing up together, at least a little, is a great thing as well, I suppose.

However, you can’t say I’m not ready to move out on my own now. I work and I can work pretty darn hard. Sure, I wouldn’t have cable, internet, or time to play games. But I’d be able to support myself and work to support myself and save to support a family.

Able is not the same as ready.

I have some issues, too. But if it works out, then I’d be spending a lifetime with her. What’s a little bit of frustration before then?

How do they behave when there is already a marriage? How far do they involve?

However, some key issues HAVE to be changed. Otherwise it can’t work
Those have to do with the development of the relationship, rather than silly “she can’t come over to me house” rules.

She’s 19. That’s adult. I remember when I was 19. I wasn’t self-sufficient or anything, but I was a voter, able to sign a valid contract, viable on my own out in the world. The rule you talk about feels incompatible with this condition.

A hypothesis? I don’t suppose I could hear it?

Maybe in a moment. I wouldn’t like to throw words on the wind if I’m wrong, though I’d hate to keep you impatient.

WEll, I talked to him briefly today. He said we’d chat soon. It was pretty nice and I didn’t feel nervous at all. So hopefully its coming together nicely.

I see.

 

[Belgarion]

Hehe. The other problem is the many factors in it. We can’t predict all of them or deduct them from what we see. Body language can be misleading, as can be overtones in someone’s voice. Heh, even the lie detector is occasionally fooled.

ah, its hopeless…LOL

Yes, I’ve seen some. Dare not say those are all accidents or that they weren’t planned before we were born. On the other hand, while God knows whom we will marry, I can’t find enough grounds to believe the specific person is pre-planned.

I wouldn’t say pre-planned, but rather just planned. its a Space-time thing…

Yes, such stories are amazing, but there are also some that don’t end in anything permanent. Let me give you an example from my life:

A girl came into the university hall near the end of my first year. Out of all people she approached me to ask about the lecture that was just starting or about to start. It turned out she had already heard it, but regardless, I invited her to stay. She politely declined and went away. Didn’t even reach the door. Came back and sat with me and we talked all the lecture away. Minutes after, I was noting down her e-mail and phone number and minutes after that, I was kissing her hand in front of her mother - it was too early to kiss her on the cheek like with a friend or older acquaintance and I don’t shake hands with women as a rule. The second time I ever saw her, she gave me her cheek to kiss and we started seeing each other every week. We would play chess in cafes and exchange rather warm e-mails, in which she quickly began to diminute my name. I was enchanted by her perfect use of the local language even though she was a resident foreigner. In the end she told me she was just treating me like another girl. A bit later I realised that well, all in all, she wasn’t for me.

I could come up with more, but let’s not talk about me. Probably everyone who has had a couple of relationships can share stories of being misguided and thinking he or she was the one.

Your experiences are shared, I’ve been led to a woman that I thought was a good match. There were a ton of coincidences that just led me to think God was guiding me. And perhaps He was! But the relationship never took place. Suffice to say it didn’t end well. But I realized that she wasn’t the right one for me because she was a different kind of person. Not my type.

Agreed. Who knows, maybe even failed relationships have happened for a reason for some people.

Or all people. Your experiences shape the way you react to certain events. If you wouldn’t react a certain way UNLESS you had a certain failed relationship, and it was necessary for you to act that certain way in order that you may meet your future wife…the failed relationship had a positive effect overall.
To quote Ian Malcom.
“The short-hand is the butterfly effect. A butterfly flaps its wings in Peking, and the weather is different in New York” (Ian Malcom, Jurassic Park)

Rules yet again. I wonder if it’s about control (control as in not giving any opportunity for things to go wrong, not as in a big brother kind of thing), or perhaps something else. But I don’t think he would think that going to your house would give her a bad reputation?

No, I don’t think that’s the case. perhaps he just doesn’t trust anyone.

Mine is more like two. But it depends on many factors in a practical case.

Age is a factor, right? Being younger, I’m probably more prone to making mistakes. I’m not quite as good at reading people. So perhaps that extra year will aid that. For you, it may be unnecesssary because you have more experience in recognizing problematic traits and red-flags.

I think secrets are a bad thing in romance, actually. It’s probably better to stay in the open. Less incentive to do wrong things, as well.

Of course. I just want to be able to say them in private. Its a shyness thing for me, and I don’t think anyone would blame me for not wanting to say sweet and meaningful words in front of her family. If I can’t talk to her on the phone, I’ll need that time to converse alone to get to know HER. The real HER, not the one who I see with her family. I am different around my family, too.