When do you admit that you love someone?

[Pro-Life_Teen]

Ah, but what if you met both at the same time? Which one would you marry first? The whole Prince Henry from “Ever After” question. He asked Leonardo da Vinci the same type of thing.

Whichever one catches your fancy first, the one who takes the extra step to get you to notice them, the one that has the eye colour you prefer, or smiles just the right way- whoever you decide to court basically, and even then you may change your mind… as Leonardo replied: “You learn to pay attention.”
[IMDB is awesome]

We don’t have one soul-mate, that doesn’t mean people that would be a good choice aren’t put in our path, but the world won’t crumble if a good potential spouse breaks up with us and we court someone else and marry the second person.

In theory I could fall in love with one of the guys down the hall [at college, woohoo dorm life] with enough getting to know them, prayer, patience and understanding. But just because in theory one of them could make a good husband for me, I’m not leaving my boyfriend.

However, I STILL haven’t talked to her dad again. So I’m not going to presume anything at all until I talk to him. The dad doesn’t play game either though…he was very concerned with my feelings when I first talked to him. Playing games would not be helpful in this situation. So its unlikely that any of them are playing games.

Talk to him. Not right this second, because it’s evening-y depending on your time zone, but soon. Not so that you sound overly desperate or anything, but it has been a bit… they may think that you’ve lost interest, perhaps? And showing a little initiative, I would think in this case, can be a positive. If she knows about you asking her dad, and asking again a bit later, she may see you’re serious.

 

[Belgarion]

Whichever one catches your fancy first, the one who takes the extra step to get you to notice them, the one that has the eye colour you prefer, or smiles just the right way- whoever you decide to court basically, and even then you may change your mind… as Leonardo replied: “You learn to pay attention.”
[IMDB is awesome]

Agreed

That movie is awesome!
THough fortunately for me, I only know one* girl that “catches my fancy”.
But the point in general is valid on your part I guess. But it doesn’t mean God won’t guide you to one first. Even if you don’t marry one. The one you are meant to marry and grow old with may need to mature a bit more. God could guide you to court one woman, while waiting for another. Or you could marry one woman, who God calls home earlier than you’d like, and then you marry the other.
I think the term “the one” just comes from most people wanting to spend the rest of their life with one person. If you find and marry that person, that is what was meant to happen. Sure, there’s free will. But God guides us and advises us. He’s not controlling us.

We don’t have one soul-mate, that doesn’t mean people that would be a good choice aren’t put in our path, but the world won’t crumble if a good potential spouse breaks up with us and we court someone else and marry the second person.

If that were the case, then you were meant to marry the second person as I explained above. Sure there might be other good potential spouses for anyone in the world. But the one in particular that came to you was the one you were meant to be with. In a sense it IS destiny, though not in the way Calvinists would see it.

In theory I could fall in love with one of the guys down the hall [at college, woohoo dorm life] with enough getting to know them, prayer, patience and understanding. But just because in theory one of them could make a good husband for me, I’m not leaving my boyfriend.

Of course! But if you married your boyfriend, would you deny that it was God’s will that that happen?

Talk to him. Not right this second, because it’s evening-y depending on your time zone, but soon. Not so that you sound overly desperate or anything, but it has been a bit… they may think that you’ve lost interest, perhaps? And showing a little initiative, I would think in this case, can be a positive. If she knows about you asking her dad, and asking again a bit later, she may see you’re serious.

First, I have already asked to talk to him. Out of politeness and respect, I asked that he take the time to talk to me when he’s not busy. The reason why I said that is because he and his family have been dealing with some rather tough things. I won’t go into details. but if you’ve ever seen me ask for prayers in the Prayer intention section of the forums, you know what I mean.

Second, I have made it quite obvious that I have not lost interest. If by some HUGE misunderstanding, they actually think I lost interest, I will reiterate.

According to one of my un-named sources, the young lady does know of my feelings to a certain extent. So yes, asking again may help.*

 

[jman507]

I have a few things to answer here.

Ah, but what if you met both at the same time? Which one would you marry first? The whole Prince Henry from “Ever After” question. He asked Leonardo da Vinci the same type of thing.

The thing is, I’m not courting her yet. If I WERE courting her, and I was still having trouble getting her to open up, THEN I’d be worried. But since I’m not, its still bothersome, but not quite as worrisome. There are things I wouldn’t tell any of my friends of family, but I might tell my significant other.

I have also been trying to open up to HER. That way she may be more inclined to open up to me. Also, she isn’t really the type to play games.

However, I STILL haven’t talked to her dad again. So I’m not going to presume anything at all until I talk to him. The dad doesn’t play game either though…he was very concerned with my feelings when I first talked to him. Playing games would not be helpful in this situation. So its unlikely that any of them are playing games.

For me, if you do want to court her, right now until you are rejected or decide not to court her, you are effectively courting her. Mind you for as far as I’m concerned, I do not really care about if you are officially doing it or not. If you get to the step where you are officially courting her, then that is another step in the process. If you are positioning yourself to do so, it has begun.

As far as what I mean by “playing games,” I think we are using different definitions. When I say that, I’m using rather liberally. Everyone is playing their game. That is not to say, “playing games” is in any way a frivolous matter. The courtship or dating process is itself a game. A person is best off if they are truly honest and sincere, as you describe them. The purpose is not to win, the purpose is to try to become aware of the other person, and to see if the relationship can work. Perhaps you feel negatively towards me saying games, and saying tests may be preferred.

As you have said yourself, you are cautious, because you’ve been hurt before. You probably are going to have your own set of tests for her. From your point of view, I don’t think you could blame the father, as well as her, having their own concerns. The nice thing, I am sure by going through this process, is that it can take away some of the doubt.

The main thing is to use their tests to figure out what their concerns are. That way you can make them trust you. Then most importantly get to know them better. I think you may be more in love with her ideal, than her right now, which isn’t a bad thing. You can only get there from here. With time, as you get to know her and her family better that love will only grow more, and truer. Perhaps it is wrong, and then you can make your decision from there. Probably you are in for a roller coaster, but it may have a good payoff.

 

[Belgarion]

For me, if you do want to court her, right now until you are rejected or decide not to court her, you are effectively courting her. Mind you for as far as I’m concerned, I do not really care about if you are officially doing it or not. If you get to the step where you are officially courting her, then that is another step in the process. If you are positioning yourself to do so, it has begun.

Uh…I am not sure about that.
In this particular case, you may be right…But I’m not going to jump the gun. Think what you want though.
Chevalier might be able to give a better argument than “I’m not sure about that”

As far as what I mean by “playing games,” I think we are using different definitions. When I say that, I’m using rather liberally. Everyone is playing their game. That is not to say, “playing games” is in any way a frivolous matter. The courtship or dating process is itself a game. A person is best off if they are truly honest and sincere, as you describe them. The purpose is not to win, the purpose is to try to become aware of the other person, and to see if the relationship can work. Perhaps you feel negatively towards me saying games, and saying tests may be preferred.

I see what you mean. This particular case may be a test, but even then…its very unlikely that anyone in the family would test me like that. The purpose of anything their doing is perhaps just waiting for everyone to be ready. That includes the young lady. But as I said, I’m not going to presume anything.

As you have said yourself, you are cautious, because you’ve been hurt before. You probably are going to have your own set of tests for her. From your point of view, I don’t think you could blame the father, as well as her, having their own concerns. The nice thing, I am sure by going through this process, is that it can take away some of the doubt.

Yes. I think you’ve got it.

The main thing is to use their tests to figure out what their concerns are. That way you can make them trust you. Then most importantly get to know them better. I think you may be more in love with her ideal, than her right now, which isn’t a bad thing. You can only get there from here. With time, as you get to know her and her family better that love will only grow more, and truer. Perhaps it is wrong, and then you can make your decision from there. Probably you are in for a roller coaster, but it may have a good payoff.

I think they already trust me. In fact, I’m certain of that. They just have their own way of doing things.
I know them all pretty well, but I could definitely get to know them better. Or rather, get to know her better.

I am familiar with a situation where I’ve loved the idea of a woman. It didn’t work out. And I realized that I never got to know her really well at all.
Being extremely cautious, as you yourself pointed out, I have made sure that I don’t do that again. I’ve gotten to know this girl for well over a year now before I’ve admitted the extent of my feelings.
Granted, I have plenty more to find out and as you said, my love could grow or it could be proven false. Plenty of people get married before they figure out that they didn’t make the right choice in a spouse. Getting to know her better know is the best thing to do.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

Agreed

That movie is awesome!
THough fortunately for me, I only know one** girl that “catches my fancy”.
But the point in general is valid on your part I guess. But it doesn’t mean God won’t guide you to one first. Even if you don’t marry one. The one you are meant to marry and grow old with may need to mature a bit more. God could guide you to court one woman, while waiting for another. Or you could marry one woman, who God calls home earlier than you’d like, and then you marry the other.
I think the term “the one” just comes from most people wanting to spend the rest of their life with one person. If you find and marry that person, that is what was meant to happen. Sure, there’s free will. But God guides us and advises us. He’s not controlling us.

I sorta get what you’re saying. Yes, we are guided- and we do have free will… but doesn’t that negate “the one” or “the two” if we’re going with remarriages? He brings people into our lives, but it is our choice if we court them or marry them. Just like we are brought friends into our lives, and people in general. We meet most people, if not everyone, for a reason- but we’re not God’s giant set of toy-people.

If that were the case, then you were meant to marry the second person as I explained above. Sure there might be other good potential spouses for anyone in the world. But the one in particular that came to you was the one you were meant to be with. In a sense it IS destiny, though not in the way Calvinists would see it.

 

[Belgarion]

I sorta get what you’re saying. Yes, we are guided- and we do have free will… but doesn’t that negate “the one” or “the two” if we’re going with remarriages? He brings people into our lives, but it is our choice if we court them or marry them. Just like we are brought friends into our lives, and people in general. We meet most people, if not everyone, for a reason- but we’re not God’s giant set of toy-people.

I see what you mean. But it doesn’t really negate anything. What happens happens! You wouldn’t really be happy if it wasn’t God’s will. You just have to trust that God will guide you to the right place at the right time. Sure, we decide to do something about it by asking a person the we met out to dinner. But ultimately, God knows that if he guides this person to you, you will ask them out, etc and then eventually get married. As I said before, its essentially the butterfly effect. God gives a little nudge (the butterfly flaps its wings in Peking) and then through this remarkable series of tiny events, this rather big events takes place (the weather in New York is different)

I disagree with the wording here. If we’re meant to marry, that’s our vocation. God sends people into our lives, and we find our spouse in one of those people. At 40 they die, and you remarry a few years later- it doesn’t negate the 15-20 years of marriage you just lived through. You were meant to marry both, in the sense that God knew you’d wed both, and that one would die.

yes, that is essentially what I was trying to say.
I meant to say that the first one was supposed to be first.

Oh, it’s undoubtedly God’s will. At least I think it is . But that doesn’t mean I didn’t have a choice in the matter, or that he didn’t have a choice in the matter. The circumstances are too absurd [and amusing] to be without a little divine help. But God forbid one of us dies in a decade and the other remarries- that certainly does not mean we chose “wrong.” Nor does it mean that the one that has died chose wrong and their true other-half is forever alone now. That belief causes too much havoc and disorder.

no, I don’t think it means you did anything wrong. God has to decide when someone dies. Thats something that not many people think about. Its not cruel, he just has to decide when its someone’s time. Of course there’s free will, and people can murder people. But that is why it’s really a sin, is it not? Because its taking God’s decision out of it. Of course, I’m sure there is more to it than that.
anyways, God’s decision to guide someone to you, and his decision to take them into Heaven work hand-in-hand. one decision is not made without full knowledge of the other.
just think of God as a friend who knows what is good for you. He makes a spouse for you (or more than one, depending on his plan) and He gently guides that person to you. But thats because He knows you better than anyone. He knows what you like and what you’ll be happy with. You DO have a choice in the matter…but why would you want to choose differently?

I’m going to go as far and say that mathematically it’s impossible for their just to be one person we are supposed to marry. If you choose wrong then you’re happy, but your real other-half is out there still. They marry as well, to someone that they are happy with, but it isn’t you. If that’s the case, both sets of children in a sense “weren’t supposed to be” because you married the wrong people, and then those children may not have proper other halfs… and the world’s population is throw in turmoil only after a few generations. *
*
You are overthinking this…If you didn’t marry the person, and you are happy…then you obviously weren’t meant to be with that person.

Aha- I read something like you mentioning that, but not the Prayer intentions themselves. I’ll pray for them. And yes, you’re right in that case-- I assumed a difference scenario.

Thank you

Naw, huge misunderstandings only happen in comedies and those problems are resolved by the end of a half hour.

And usually there are laugh tracks…My life doesn’t have those…

I like this “un-named source.” Like a journalist, or a cooler yet- a secret agent.

Definitely a secret agent. Especially since I don’t communicate with my agent face-to-face.

 

[Belgarion]

Well, to give an update. Her father and I are nailing down a time to talk. its kinda hard, but I think It’ll be fine.

Once that gets set, I’ll be able to get some things straightened out and perhaps quell any fears that I might have.

I’ll be sure to give an update when I have that discussion.

In the meantime, I ask for your prayers. Not only for me and my quest, but for the young lady and her family. Especially her father, that he may act on God’s will (whether that coincides with mine or his) and that if a courtship does take place, it will be blessed and happy.

Thank you so much!

 

[Belgarion]

Wow, triple post.
Sorry, I had to because I directed some here and I wanted to update them on what’s going on.

I talked to her dad again a while back and it was interesting.

I said I’d like to be married at 21 or 22, he didn’t have a problem with that. And I turn 20 in June.

Anyways, so he said I need to be on a path. I’m on my way to getting a career and money saved up. Which is good…so I’m almost on that path, which may mean I am close to being able to date her.
He mentioned that SHE said she wouldn’t be ready to get married til a year and a half from then…so its a year from now…which is odd…since that falls in line with my timing, and my career’s timing as well when it concerns money being saved up.

Now, the bad part about this was that he said that I could come over once in a while and watch movies, and stay for dinner…A couple weeks later, he comes to me and tells me that he prayed about it, and talked to the young lady, and they both decided she wasn’t ready for that…THAT…WHAT?! watching a movie with the whole family?..Wonder why…

Well, I came home hurt after the last conversation after Mass.
in fact, before I even left, I went to talk to her in about something else…for a splot second, I saw a look of concern. For good reason, too.
After talking to my parents, they decided that I didn’t need to be hurt and led around like that anymore.
I agreed, and stopped talking to the girl, or her family.
When her father almost ran me down one night, he said he wanted to talk to me again. My parents had asked me to let THEM talk to him. I let HIM know that, and suddenly he lost his interest in talking to anyone about the matter…ha

Anyways, I stopped talking to her for weeks. I’d leave immediately after choir practice, and go spend time with my other friends after Church.
My “spies” noticed that she was looking very upset (which is odd since she never really ACTS upset when she is) and was obviously hurt and upset that I wasn’t talking to her.
Needless to say, I didn’t care, since she didn’t seem to care about my feelings.

Unfortunately, I had to be the one who couldn’t stand seeing the other hurting…so as soon as I said a word to her, she brightened up.

Since then, however, we’ve gotten strangely closer and more comfortable around each other. She started saying things that made me think “You’re saying this around your family?!?! To ME?!?”

yeah, and so that’s how its been like really.
Recently, I formulated an evil scheme. Just to impress her ya know?
My mother had given me a christmas present. A little note saying she’d buy me a suit! yay!
Anyways. So we got TWO suits, one black, one blue…I love Men’s Wearhouse’s two for one sales…
So my plan was to basically look my best for her, and make her go weak at the knees. JUST like she did for me when she got her hair cut once…Sneaky little devil of a girl… My scheme involved a month of planning (Fittings, sundays, etc) During thise period of time, the suit topic had come up…but she didn’t know I got one! she said “You should get a blue suit” and smiled…Little did she know…hehe
So the weekend before last, she had to go to St. Louis for a conference. I told her before she left (after I hugged her goodbye) that I had a surprise for her when she came back.
Apparently she had been pondering what it could be…which means teasing it worked…hehe.

So last Sunday, I wore my blue suit and showed up, walked into the choir loft and next to her. She noticed me and with a look I can only describe as “surprise” she said “Hiiii…” in a tone that sounded more like she said “Wow…”


Of course, I see her again tonight at choir practice…whew…

anything else I should mention?

Mission accomplished

 

[chevalier]

Belgarion, perhaps I can help you with some answers.

No one needs to be ready for watching films with family. But by making it into marriage plans, watching films became a first step on the road to being married. It may feel like fast-forward from there to the wedding.

I will be frank with you that if it happened to me, i.e. my family were doing marriage planning for me, I would be very uncomfortable even talking to someone who had their backing - especially someone who had been talking to them about it.
You cannot discuss the plans with the father but not with the daughter. He can’t make the plans for her. You can’t be in one league with her father, herself being on the other side.

My parents had asked me to let THEM talk to him. I let HIM know that, and suddenly he lost his interest in talking to anyone about the matter…ha

I am afraid it might be a control thing. If he has good motives for doing that with regard to his daughter, he should recognise a symmetrical right of your parents. I can see why he would want to be involved, but if he wants himself to be involved but not your parents on the other side, then I cannot find a good and logical reason for that.

Oh, and suits work.

One word of caution: Don’t allow her father to abuse the fact that you are the one to extend your hand first. Do not change, but do not allow him to use it to dictate terms to you.

 

[graceandglory]

Belgarion:
Everything you wanted to know about love in one place:

Love and Responsibility
by
Karol Wojtyla
aka: Pope John Paul II

amazon.com/Love-Responsibility-Pope-John-Paul/dp/0898704456

 

[Belgarion]

Belgarion, perhaps I can help you with some answers.

Let the word fencing begin

No one needs to be ready for watching films with family. But by making it into marriage plans, watching films became a first step on the road to being married. It may feel like fast-forward from there to the wedding.

That could be true there.
But there are no real marriage plans. I just mentioned that’d be a timeframe for me. I DID mention that if things went the right way, I’d marry HER. That was my way of telling him how strongly I feel for her.
But yeah, it makes sense…However, HE was the one that suggested coming over in the first place.

I will be frank with you that if it happened to me, i.e. my family were doing marriage planning for me, I would be very uncomfortable even talking to someone who had their backing - especially someone who had been talking to them about it.
You cannot discuss the plans with the father but not with the daughter. He can’t make the plans for her. You can’t be in one league with her father, herself being on the other side.

I know that. But unfortunately its a big no-no to talk to her about this stuff at all!
And I really do want to! I’ll tell ya, if her parents had no problems, or would react by just getting a little upset…I’d do it!
But right now, if I asked her to talk, or gave her a letter, they’d freak.
I’m not worried about myself. I can handle them being mad at me.
But I don’t want to cause trouble for her. She’s close to her siblings, and to her parents. I wouldn’t want to hurt her by starting a war between her and her parents (Assuming she cares about me THAT much)
I just wouldn’t want her to be like that.

Hmm…Its a complicated issue, and I hope I’m explaining it right.

I am afraid it might be a control thing. If he has good motives for doing that with regard to his daughter, he should recognise a symmetrical right of your parents. I can see why he would want to be involved, but if he wants himself to be involved but not your parents on the other side, then I cannot find a good and logical reason for that.

Exactly.
He is one sided and very hypocritical in that respect.
When it was his son who was involved with someone (Much more advanced than me, WITHOUT parental permission or knowledge) he had all these rules and he was trying to convince the son that the woman wasn’t right for him. (They’re now married and have 2 kids, with one more on the way)
And yet…He ignores my parents’ rules.
Makes. No. Sense.
He has good motives though. And that makes sense. But I just can’t trust him. He says that he couldn’t stop us from advancing the relationship ourselves, but I’m fairly certain that he would still TRY.

Oh, and suits work.

So I noticed

One word of caution: Don’t allow her father to abuse the fact that you are the one to extend your hand first. Do not change, but do not allow him to use it to dictate terms to you.

Hmm…I hope I understand what you mean by that
Are you saying that I shouldn’t let him control everything simply because I came to HIM about it?

Cuz I’ll tell ya, I respect him and all…but everything here, I’d tell him to his face.

 

[chevalier]

Let the word fencing begin

Actually, I’m being cooperative here.

That could be true there.
But there are no real marriage plans. I just mentioned that’d be a timeframe for me. I DID mention that if things went the right way, I’d marry HER. That was my way of telling him how strongly I feel for her.
But yeah, it makes sense…However, HE was the one that suggested coming over in the first place.

There’s a reason why you say “real” after “no”. Looks like you and her father talking about her marriage to you. I’d have none of that if I were female, but she is different. Or, rather, either she is different or her father has a bit more control than he’s willing to call such. Also, she knows precisely where it’s headed and she must know that watching films is a thing that’s done 1.5 years before marrying, in this context. It’s like you having to promise before she will even have ice-cream with you, that you’ll marry her if things follow a predictable course and circumstances don’t change. That’d be a serious wet blanket for me.

I know that. But unfortunately its a big no-no to talk to her about this stuff at all!

Nothing about us without us! Nihil de nobis sine nobis. I have little tolerance for such rules and even less for the one party imposing taboos on the other. Dictating how things are gone is one thing. Restricting communication and discussion subjects is another one.

And I really do want to! I’ll tell ya, if her parents had no problems, or would react by just getting a little upset…I’d do it!
But right now, if I asked her to talk, or gave her a letter, they’d freak.

No one has the right to hold you hostage to the prospect that he will freak. That is precisely the definition of emotional blackmail. Even if it is not intentional on their part, if you submit to it, it will have a very similar effect on you, your future and the relationship as well. As I see it, a relationship with them as in-laws will be difficult anyway.

I’m not worried about myself. I can handle them being mad at me.
But I don’t want to cause trouble for her. She’s close to her siblings, and to her parents. I wouldn’t want to hurt her by starting a war between her and her parents (Assuming she cares about me THAT much)
I just wouldn’t want her to be like that.

If I had too much, I’d probably leave the girl alone because I wouldn’t want to drive a wedge between her and her family. If she followed me, I would accept that, but I wouldn’t ask her. That the relationship will not work out is a possibility and the fear of it shouldn’t be your captor.

Hmm…Its a complicated issue, and I hope I’m explaining it right.

No worries, I get it.

When it was his son who was involved with someone (Much more advanced than me, WITHOUT parental permission or knowledge) he had all these rules and he was trying to convince the son that the woman wasn’t right for him. (They’re now married and have 2 kids, with one more on the way)
And yet…He ignores my parents’ rules.
Makes. No. Sense.

Ignoring your parents’ rules while keeping his own is not hypocritical yet. What is hypocritical is claiming the right to intercede for his daughter but denying your parents the right to intercede for you. That’s hypocritical because the situation is almost the same (she doesn’t have to be a man but you’re equal, so while you need to show more initiative than she, that’s not enough to put a father on her side but not on yours).

He has good motives though. And that makes sense. But I just can’t trust him. He says that he couldn’t stop us from advancing the relationship ourselves, but I’m fairly certain that he would still TRY.

I would say that you can’t. He will not attempt to harm you or her and he will generally not have bad intentions - except maybe subconscious controlling tendencies - but you can’t rely on him much.

So I noticed

Now go learn some nice tie knots. Half-Windsor for starters.

Hmm…I hope I understand what you mean by that
Are you saying that I shouldn’t let him control everything simply because I came to HIM about it?

You shouldn’t allow him to abuse your “weakness” that consists in your being the first one to make conciliatory steps. Don’t let it erode into being a scapegoat and don’t allow it to give him any authority over you. If he crosses the line, you will need to do what you did, i.e. once again stop talking to them. Once she’s on her own, if she wants to, she can contact you then.

Cuz I’ll tell ya, I respect him and all…but everything here, I’d tell him to his face.

I won’t tell you what I’d tell him, but it would be rather short.

 

[Belgarion]

Actually, I’m being cooperative here.

hehe, I know! I now associate the style of frequent breaking down and quoting with “Word Fencing”

There’s a reason why you say “real” after “no”. Looks like you and her father talking about her marriage to you. I’d have none of that if I were female, but she is different. Or, rather, either she is different or her father has a bit more control than he’s willing to call such. Also, she knows precisely where it’s headed and she must know that watching films is a thing that’s done 1.5 years before marrying, in this context. It’s like you having to promise before she will even have ice-cream with you, that you’ll marry her if things follow a predictable course and circumstances don’t change. That’d be a serious wet blanket for me.

I can see what you mean. I believe her own brother had to say that he intended to marry his now-wife. Apparently, his wife was somewhat disappointed because it sort of ruined the surprise.
Now, her father and I aren’t making wedding arrangements or anything like that. I just told him that I’m not fooling around here. This is serious for me, and I have strong (and logical) feelings for her. Heck, I just saw her again tonight. She is amazing. Just like the Nat King Cole song. “Its incredible that someone so unforgettable thinks that I am unforgettable, too”

And she does, BTW…if I haven’t told you that already…

Nothing about us without us! Nihil de nobis sine nobis. I have little tolerance for such rules and even less for the one party imposing taboos on the other. Dictating how things are gone is one thing. Restricting communication and discussion subjects is another one.

Heck yeah. Its absolutely ridiculous. But he won’t budge on that now. And that’s why I want to show him up, and beat him at his own game. So that’s why I’m trying to advance myself with a career, so he has no excuse for why he’s acting like that.

No one has the right to hold you hostage to the prospect that he will freak. That is precisely the definition of emotional blackmail. Even if it is not intentional on their part, if you submit to it, it will have a very similar effect on you, your future and the relationship as well. As I see it, a relationship with them as in-laws will be difficult anyway.

Well, I’d be a in LITTLE better of a position to deal with them if I was married to her. I can DEFINITELY tell that that is true, judging by the lives of the married siblings.
That emotional blackmail NOW is precisely why my parents said that from now on, THEY will deal with the parents. It makes sense, so I agreed. Of course, that was another attempt at throwing their own methods and rules back at them.

If I had too much, I’d probably leave the girl alone because I wouldn’t want to drive a wedge between her and her family. If she followed me, I would accept that, but I wouldn’t ask her. That the relationship will not work out is a possibility and the fear of it shouldn’t be your captor.

Well, I know that she cares about me, and her family’s rules and near-insanity are not her fault.
I guess I’m not just afraid of her having problems with her parents.
I don’t really know how to explain it. Its not like I’d want to run away and get married…but I’d want to be prepared for that kind of worst-case scenario. I dunno. I am just being weird about hat.
Anyways…I wouldn’t want to punish HER, especially if I don’t know how she really feels about all this.

No worries, I get it.

good!

Ignoring your parents’ rules while keeping his own is not hypocritical yet. What is hypocritical is claiming the right to intercede for his daughter but denying your parents the right to intercede for you. That’s hypocritical because the situation is almost the same (she doesn’t have to be a man but you’re equal, so while you need to show more initiative than she, that’s not enough to put a father on her side but not on yours).

Yeah, that’s pretty much it though. He can talk to me about all this, but my parents can’t talk to her about it.
Its a bit hypocritical THERE

I would say that you can’t. He will not attempt to harm you or her and he will generally not have bad intentions - except maybe subconscious controlling tendencies - but you can’t rely on him much.

No, I really can’t. Because as I’ve been warned before, he could be saying that SHE is saying something…and she’d only be saying that because he WANTS her to say it.

Now go learn some nice tie knots. Half-Windsor for starters.

…I know how to tie and tie…There’s more than one way?

You shouldn’t allow him to abuse your “weakness” that consists in your being the first one to make conciliatory steps. Don’t let it erode into being a scapegoat and don’t allow it to give him any authority over you. If he crosses the line, you will need to do what you did, i.e. once again stop talking to them. Once she’s on her own, if she wants to, she can contact you then.

Yeah, but as my dad so wonderfully pointed out…these girls don’t move out until they get married…Not that its a really bad thing…My sister lived her until she got married, but she was 20. The oldest sister at home for them is 23.
I think that if he crosses that line, I should cross it, too by talking to her.
If she doesn’t care about me enough to ask him to butt out…THEN she’s deserving of me going back to not talking to her.

I won’t tell you what I’d tell him, but it would be rather short.

You could PM it to me!

 

[DL82]

Hey Belgarion, glad to hear things are working out for you in the end.

It’s wonderful when things work out in spite of obstacles. Our God is a God of Love, and He won’t let our unlovingness get in His way!

Pray to St Jude, St Valentine & St Raphael, all good saints for difficult cases and romantic relationships, and all have come good for me!

 

[chevalier]

hehe, I know! I now associate the style of frequent breaking down and quoting with “Word Fencing”

Wonder why.

Heck yeah. Its absolutely ridiculous. But he won’t budge on that now. And that’s why I want to show him up, and beat him at his own game. So that’s why I’m trying to advance myself with a career, so he has no excuse for why he’s acting like that.

It may be hard to beat him if makes up the rules.

Well, I’d be a in LITTLE better of a position to deal with them if I was married to her. I can DEFINITELY tell that that is true, judging by the lives of the married siblings.

So the father’s dominance doesn’t stop after marriage? He can find sources for large parental authority but not when the daughter is already married.

That emotional blackmail NOW is precisely why my parents said that from now on, THEY will deal with the parents. It makes sense, so I agreed. Of course, that was another attempt at throwing their own methods and rules back at them.
Well, I know that she cares about me, and her family’s rules and near-insanity are not her fault.

Careful. I remember you defending the father on the grounds that *she *wanted it that way. Now you’re defending *her *on the grounds that her father made it up. Your opinion on this evolves, naturally, and you strive to give them each the benefit of doubt, but logic has feelings too.

I guess I’m not just afraid of her having problems with her parents.
I don’t really know how to explain it. Its not like I’d want to run away and get married…but I’d want to be prepared for that kind of worst-case scenario. I dunno. I am just being weird about hat.
Anyways…I wouldn’t want to punish HER, especially if I don’t know how she really feels about all this.

It’s a big problem that you don’t know she really feels about all this. You have a problem if she’s brainwashed, you have a problem if she’s not but you have a controlling future father-in-law.

Yeah, that’s pretty much it though. He can talk to me about all this, but my parents can’t talk to her about it.
Its a bit hypocritical THERE

Or you need to talk to him, not to her, whereas he can go straight to you and not your parents, meaning he’s your judge and jury and police and the bailiff and… I’m obviously exaggerating, but you get the point.

No, I really can’t. Because as I’ve been warned before, he could be saying that SHE is saying something…and she’d only be saying that because he WANTS her to say it.

Well, I would inform him in short words that making things up never were and never would be acceptable. After that, I’d probably be banned from his house, however.

…I know how to tie and tie…There’s more than one way?

There’s a lot, but only a couple are important. If you google them up, you’ll get the pictures. Victorian is nice for dressy occasions, half-Windsor is a gentlemanly tie (think social occasions), classical is good for certain kinds of ties, four-in-hand is what politicians like (Obama won a campaign with it). There are much more, but there are also better things to learn.

Yeah, but as my dad so wonderfully pointed out…these girls don’t move out until they get married…Not that its a really bad thing…My sister lived her until she got married, but she was 20. The oldest sister at home for them is 23.
I think that if he crosses that line, I should cross it, too by talking to her.

Even if people don’t move out, the parents have no authority in matters of marriage and related. If you live with your parents, it means the father is the head of the household for you, so his decisions carry the most weight. But this doesn’t mean that he gets to run the house so that it’s pleasant to him because he’s an African king. He certainly doesn’t acquire a right to dictate every part of your life because you live under his roof - even if he supports you financially.

You could PM it to me!

No matter what, you will look bad telling him that his behaviour is wrong. That’s because you’re 20 and he’s probably around 50 and the head of a family. It has every potential to be ill-taken. But perhaps you could ask your father to explain to him that while protecting his daughter is acceptable, playing head games and being less than scrupulous with the facts is not. But if you make it a war, you’ll have a huge problem even if you marry that girl in the future. It would be better to solve it without earning a hostile father-in-law along the way.

 

[Eucharisted]

My best advice is prayer, talk to a priest, and be a good Christian. By prayer and good example, you will win the father’s heart. By talking to a priest, you will get even better advice. God bless!

 

[lenni]

honestly dude, i still dont get why you dont just ‘hang out’ wif her to show your still interested. i dont mean date. but being more than friends,but less than gf/bf. so like, super close friends, i guess…
and i dont get why you have to ask her dad for everything. i mean, you arent dating her dad are you?!..im sorry, its frustrating seeing you being bossed by her dad. i mean, you seem like a really good kid. In contrast to alot of my other mates.

and i agree wif chevalier - telling her dad that you plan to marry her seems really forward. i would have kept that to myself but whats done is done now.

 

[LJN21]

You’ve been “seeing” her socially for how long now? If I remember right this started before you were 18 now your almost 20?

You know, I’d try and find a nice quite place with out anyone really listening in and ask her what she wanted to do and her expectations. Don’t mention Marriage (yet) but find out how SHE wants you to deal with her father. She is an adult, he has very little if any room to ground to stand on when it comes to interfering with his Children picking a spouse. (CCC 2217) Just tell her you don’t want to make trouble with her Dad for her but your getting conflicting information between. He says she’s not ready (to watch movies? thats totaly over the top…) and when you do the PURDENT thing and cut it off she seems hurt, you care (I’d not say love yet either ) for her and don’t want to see her upset but you can’t (and shouldn’t) play her fathers games. Of course I’d find a very tactful way to say all that too

I’d recommend picking up a book called Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend. This looks very much like an out right control issue to me and one that’s likely could cause some issues later if you did marry her. You need to make sure you both on the same page on this and it can’t wait until he has finely allowed you to set a date. In-law issues aren’t fun, after nearly 10 years (we got married at 19) we’ve had some crop up, and honestly if we weren’t 100% on the same page, it would be hell on our marriage.

 

[Belgarion]

Wonder why.

Parry! Parry!

It may be hard to beat him if makes up the rules.

Ah, but such things are my speciality! I do the same with atheists

So the father’s dominance doesn’t stop after marriage? He can find sources for large parental authority but not when the daughter is already married.

No, no, no! It does! The married ones are definitely their own people, and I am quite sure that at least one in particular married someone who would NEVER let them dominate the marriage. And since I haven’t heard from this person that the other marriages are dominated still…I am assuming (and correctly so) that they are not.

Careful. I remember you defending the father on the grounds that *she *wanted it that way. Now you’re defending *her *on the grounds that her father made it up. Your opinion on this evolves, naturally, and you strive to give them each the benefit of doubt, but logic has feelings too.

My opinion evolved because of the time I spent with her.
She has said things, and acted certain ways that made me question the reliability of what her father tells me about her readiness.
Seriously, if I didn’t already know she likes me, then her behavior now would be proof enough. Its that obvious. So when I get her acting a certain way when her father isn’t around, (strangely, her sisters and brother are) and it contradicts everything that her father has been saying, I SHOULD question what he says.

It’s a big problem that you don’t know she really feels about all this. You have a problem if she’s brainwashed, you have a problem if she’s not but you have a controlling future father-in-law.

Or at least an estranged one.
Now, there is what I said above…but there is still what he said. So I guess I sort of doubt my own ability to deduce her feelings on that matter.

Or you need to talk to him, not to her, whereas he can go straight to you and not your parents, meaning he’s your judge and jury and police and the bailiff and… I’m obviously exaggerating, but you get the point.

No, I don’t think you are.

Well, I would inform him in short words that making things up never were and never would be acceptable. After that, I’d probably be banned from his house, however.

Yeah, well I’ve basically been banned since I haven’t been invited over since I was told that she wasn’t ready to have me over to watch movies with them.
But making things up is not acceptable at all. Though he assured me that he has no reason to. I don’t remember his exact words, but he said he has no ulterior motive for doing what he did.

There’s a lot, but only a couple are important. If you google them up, you’ll get the pictures. Victorian is nice for dressy occasions, half-Windsor is a gentlemanly tie (think social occasions), classical is good for certain kinds of ties, four-in-hand is what politicians like (Obama won a campaign with it). There are much more, but there are also better things to learn.

…maybe…but she WAS quite impressed…I mean, I was assured, by a friend who knows her quite well, that she would give no outward sign at all. So its quite an accomplishment to have her react the way she did suits work. Ties, too…

Even if people don’t move out, the parents have no authority in matters of marriage and related. If you live with your parents, it means the father is the head of the household for you, so his decisions carry the most weight. But this doesn’t mean that he gets to run the house so that it’s pleasant to him because he’s an African king. He certainly doesn’t acquire a right to dictate every part of your life because you live under his roof - even if he supports you financially.

That’s true. My own father doesn’t like my situation with her, but he has not tried to order me to give up.

HAHA!
The funny thing about that is that same friend mentioned above told me a story once. She had a book about these HORRIBLE patriarchal families (Much worse than THEIR family though) and the 23 year old from my girl’s p) family had read the book while at my friend’s house. So my friend, and secret spy, says "Did you read that?

The 23 year old responds: “Yeah, that reminds me of Ryan’s family!”
…MY FAMILY!!! LOL! Aw man! Talk about delusion. Now, the 23 year old sister is a good friend of mine…but she obviously can’t see that her father is more controlling than mine.

No matter what, you will look bad telling him that his behaviour is wrong. That’s because you’re 20 and he’s probably around 50 and the head of a family. It has every potential to be ill-taken. But perhaps you could ask your father to explain to him that while protecting his daughter is acceptable, playing head games and being less than scrupulous with the facts is not. But if you make it a war, you’ll have a huge problem even if you marry that girl in the future. It would be better to solve it without earning a hostile father-in-law along the way.

Aw…I love wars though…j/k
But yeah, my father would definitely tell him that…Actually…my MOTHER would! You see, my dad is very diplomatic. His job really helped him with that. But my mom is emotional, and was VERY upset at the games that were being played. She was the one that suggested that they deal with it in my stead. Of course, as you know, the father has lost interest in discussing the matter, even though he had been so eager before…I’d call him a coward, but that’d be mean…

 

[Belgarion]

honestly dude, i still dont get why you dont just ‘hang out’ wif her to show your still interested. i dont mean date. but being more than friends,but less than gf/bf. so like, super close friends, i guess…
and i dont get why you have to ask her dad for everything. i mean, you arent dating her dad are you?!..im sorry, its frustrating seeing you being bossed by her dad. i mean, you seem like a really good kid. In contrast to alot of my other mates.

Thanks

and i agree wif chevalier - telling her dad that you plan to marry her seems really forward. i would have kept that to myself but whats done is done now.

Well, its not the forward part that would be a problem. Since that is the purpose of courtship, even more so by their standards.
But I HAVE been hanging out with her as a friend. and after nearly two years, its become quite certain for me.

Eucharisted:

My best advice is prayer, talk to a priest, and be a good Christian. By prayer and good example, you will win the father’s heart. By talking to a priest, you will get even better advice. God bless!

That’s good advice! Though I’d rather not win the father’s heart…

LJN21:

You’ve been “seeing” her socially for how long now? If I remember right this started before you were 18 now your almost 20?

Yeah…Nearly two years while being interested…more while just being a friend.

You know, I’d try and find a nice quite place with out anyone really listening in and ask her what she wanted to do and her expectations. Don’t mention Marriage (yet) but find out how SHE wants you to deal with her father. She is an adult, he has very little if any room to ground to stand on when it comes to interfering with his Children picking a spouse. (CCC 2217) Just tell her you don’t want to make trouble with her Dad for her but your getting conflicting information between. He says she’s not ready (to watch movies? thats totaly over the top…) and when you do the PURDENT thing and cut it off she seems hurt, you care (I’d not say love yet either ) for her and don’t want to see her upset but you can’t (and shouldn’t) play her fathers games. Of course I’d find a very tactful way to say all that too

Hmm…I just thought of a good way to be able to talk about that stuff…Thanks!
Though I probably wouldn’t bring up our relationship, but rather just her future in general…for now…The rest WILL come up, no doubt.

I’d recommend picking up a book called Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend. This looks very much like an out right control issue to me and one that’s likely could cause some issues later if you did marry her. You need to make sure you both on the same page on this and it can’t wait until he has finely allowed you to set a date. In-law issues aren’t fun, after nearly 10 years (we got married at 19) we’ve had some crop up, and honestly if we weren’t 100% on the same page, it would be hell on our marriage.

I see, I’ll look into it.
I’m kind of a passive person, which is why I’ve put up with all this for this long. But even I have limits, and trying to control a married couple is not cool. I wouldn’t stand for that, especially because neither of us would rely on him anymore.
And yes. I DO need to be on the same page as her. This is a serious issue for me.
Thanks you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut! Its been quite helpful!